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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:17 pm Post subject: Solid Valve Blocks |
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My understanding is that heavy caps are used to lessen the vibration in the valve block so as to maximise the efficiency of the sound production of the overall trumpet. Has anyone designed a horn with a solid valve block with bored out cylinders and valve slide ports? |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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You asked a similar question about a one piece trumpet. Is there something that piqued your interest in the subject? |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:14 am Post subject: |
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I think the best one could do is to bore out the inner contour of a straight trumpet out of a long block of metal and stick a mouthpiece in it and blow to see if the theory is sound. Ahem!
However, I contend that it isn't the highest efficiency that makes the best trumpet or best sound. I have come to believe that it is the in-efficiencies that make the horn and its sound interesting to us. The "faults" make the music. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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oxleyk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Solid Valve Blocks |
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trumpet56 wrote: | My understanding is that heavy caps are used to lessen the vibration in the valve block so as to maximise the efficiency of the sound production of the overall trumpet. Has anyone designed a horn with a solid valve block with bored out cylinders and valve slide ports? |
They certainly dampen the vibration but it isn't necessarily a good thing, especially after you realize how much effort you're using to play. You don't even need heavy caps to experiment. Rubber o-rings on the bottom caps will do the same thing. In my experience, after switching to heavy caps any benefit is short-lived. |
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LaserJim Regular Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2015 Posts: 19 Location: Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Leaving aside whether or not it is a good idea, it should be possible to make a one-piece valve block, including all the ports, using metal additive manufacturing (3D printing). The cylinders would then need to be reamed and lapped, and threads cut top and bottom.
I'm not familiar enough with the high-end kit to know whether the surface finish inside the ports would be adequate, but I think so. The company I work for makes metal AM systems, but it's a different division. I'll ask when I get back from vacation.
Whether the materials available (titanium, cobolt chromium, inconel, or aluminium alloys) make sense for bearing against typical piston materials is another question.
I'm sure that someone investigating heavy, sheet-braced, trumpets must have gotten close to this one piece valve block by soldering on some plate material on one side of a standard block, then filling the void with solder. |
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Gottfried Reiche Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2013 Posts: 184
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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LaserJim wrote: |
I'm sure that someone investigating heavy, sheet-braced, trumpets must have gotten close to this one piece valve block by soldering on some plate material on one side of a standard block, then filling the void with solder. |
Oh man. This reminds me of some of Harrelson's early work. Absolutely dreadful! |
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LaserJim Regular Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2015 Posts: 19 Location: Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Gottfried Reiche wrote: |
Oh man. This reminds me of some of Harrelson's early work. Absolutely dreadful! |
I haven't seen Jason's early work, but I did think he might be the builder most likely to try AM parts as the next step from, or compliment to, his CNC machining. I rather like the look of his current models.
Actually, I remember now that he's already doing 3D printed mouthpieces in plastic: https://www.instagram.com/p/BkS1jmKDW6R/?hl=en&taken-by=harrelsontrumpets |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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LaserJim wrote: | Leaving aside whether or not it is a good idea, it should be possible to make a one-piece valve block, including all the ports, using metal additive manufacturing (3D printing). The cylinders would then need to be reamed and lapped, and threads cut top and bottom.
I'm not familiar enough with the high-end kit to know whether the surface finish inside the ports would be adequate, but I think so. The company I work for makes metal AM systems, but it's a different division. I'll ask when I get back from vacation.
Whether the materials available (titanium, cobolt chromium, inconel, or aluminium alloys) make sense for bearing against typical piston materials is another question.
I'm sure that someone investigating heavy, sheet-braced, trumpets must have gotten close to this one piece valve block by soldering on some plate material on one side of a standard block, then filling the void with solder. |
re The casing's bearing surface issue, one could insert a sleeve of the appropriate material. Kind of like the sleeves in the old Chevy Vega aluminum block engine. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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To the OP and the rest: What is the goal of such a thing? Why would we take the trouble to investigate a valve block made of one solid piece? What deficiency are we trying to correct? What advancement are we trying to attain?
Don't read my questions with a critical or derisive tone. I'm writing more in an analytical mindset. So, let's outline the basic premise and goal, citing a real fault in the current design paradigm, or at least an enhancement. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | To the OP and the rest: What is the goal of such a thing? Why would we take the trouble to investigate a valve block made of one solid piece? What deficiency are we trying to correct? What advancement are we trying to attain?
Don't read my questions with a critical or derisive tone. I'm writing more in an analytical mindset. So, let's outline the basic premise and goal, citing a real fault in the current design paradigm, or at least an enhancement. |
My analytical mindset went to the challenge of making it, not the why should we, although I did ask the OP why he posed the question. |
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | To the OP and the rest: What is the goal of such a thing? Why would we take the trouble to investigate a valve block made of one solid piece? What deficiency are we trying to correct? What advancement are we trying to attain?
Don't read my questions with a critical or derisive tone. I'm writing more in an analytical mindset. So, let's outline the basic premise and goal, citing a real fault in the current design paradigm, or at least an enhancement. |
My analytical mindset went to the challenge of making it, not the why should we, although I did ask the OP why he posed the question. |
I have heard this idea bandied about for several years now and was interested if any of the trumpet designers/manufacturers had actually tried it and if so what were the results, good or bad? |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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You could just look at the Buescher unitized valve blocks from 1935.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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LaserJim wrote: | Leaving aside whether or not it is a good idea, it should be possible to make a one-piece valve block, including all the ports, using metal additive manufacturing (3D printing). The cylinders would then need to be reamed and lapped, and threads cut top and bottom.
I'm not familiar enough with the high-end kit to know whether the surface finish inside the ports would be adequate, but I think so. The company I work for makes metal AM systems, but it's a different division. I'll ask when I get back from vacation.
Whether the materials available (titanium, cobolt chromium, inconel, or aluminium alloys) make sense for bearing against typical piston materials is another question.
I'm sure that someone investigating heavy, sheet-braced, trumpets must have gotten close to this one piece valve block by soldering on some plate material on one side of a standard block, then filling the void with solder. |
Whaddya mean ONE side with a solid plate?!? These things are supposed to be bullet proof, right? Full armor plate on BOTH sides. If ya can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. NO extra effort, quite the opposite, it responds to the slightest puff .. of course overall design goes into that, I'm sure there are heavyweight horns that are dogs. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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AlfaFreak Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2011 Posts: 379 Location: Australia
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for the post. I knew I was on to something but it seems it is not viable for piston valves. |
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J. Landress Brass Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2006 Posts: 425 Location: New York City
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:31 am Post subject: |
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From a stability standpoint I can see a solid valve block being quite the advantage, however would be extremely difficult to machine and would still need to be made from several pieces and then soldered together as it would be nearly impossible to machine out the inside of the inner connecting valve ports.
The major advantage would be the overall strength of the casing. On trumpets and all brass instruments there are differences in the hardness of the metal in different locations. For example your "hard" parts are going to be slide tubes and crooks (let's exclude lightweight crooks for this example), stamped braces and the inside of the bell bend. Your "soft" spots are mainly in the valve section. This is caused from the need to anneal the metal to braze the ports together. This then makes the metal dead soft and not worked hardened like the "hard" parts which will be more prone to wear and damage. _________________ Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com |
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AlfaFreak Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2011 Posts: 379 Location: Australia
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Acoustic results aside, I can't see this as being too difficult to achieve with piston valves.
I can't see why methods such as a 3D milling machine or even 3D metal printing couldn't achieve a functional solid piston valve block without tooo much effort.
I guess from the way I see it, the greater public might have to adjust their expectations, acceptance and understanding of construction methods and techniques but then again we all are happy with Schilke electro formed bells etc.
Just thoughts. _________________ Yamaha Loyalist Website
YamahaCollector FaceBook |
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