Solid Valve Blocks

trumpet56 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623

My understanding is that heavy caps are used to lessen the vibration in the valve block so as to maximise the efficiency of the sound production of the overall trumpet. Has anyone designed a horn with a solid valve block with bored out cylinders and valve slide ports?

Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject:

There are plenty of examples of 1 piece casings, but not a whole valve block. It is way too difficult to machine, when brazing parts together is so much more affordable.
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LittleRusty · Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:44 pm Post subject:

You asked a similar question about a one piece trumpet. Is there something that piqued your interest in the subject?

shofarguy · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:14 am Post subject:

I think the best one could do is to bore out the inner contour of a straight trumpet out of a long block of metal and stick a mouthpiece in it and blow to see if the theory is sound. Ahem!

However, I contend that it isn't the highest efficiency that makes the best trumpet or best sound. I have come to believe that it is the in-efficiencies that make the horn and its sound interesting to us. The "faults" make the music.
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oxleyk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 4180

LaserJim · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:35 am Post subject:

Leaving aside whether or not it is a good idea, it should be possible to make a one-piece valve block, including all the ports, using metal additive manufacturing (3D printing). The cylinders would then need to be reamed and lapped, and threads cut top and bottom.

I'm not familiar enough with the high-end kit to know whether the surface finish inside the ports would be adequate, but I think so. The company I work for makes metal AM systems, but it's a different division. I'll ask when I get back from vacation.

Whether the materials available (titanium, cobolt chromium, inconel, or aluminium alloys) make sense for bearing against typical piston materials is another question.

I'm sure that someone investigating heavy, sheet-braced, trumpets must have gotten close to this one piece valve block by soldering on some plate material on one side of a standard block, then filling the void with solder.

Gottfried Reiche · Veteran Member Joined: 27 Nov 2013 Posts: 184

LaserJim · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject:

LittleRusty · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:59 pm Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject:

To the OP and the rest: What is the goal of such a thing? Why would we take the trouble to investigate a valve block made of one solid piece? What deficiency are we trying to correct? What advancement are we trying to attain?

Don't read my questions with a critical or derisive tone. I'm writing more in an analytical mindset. So, let's outline the basic premise and goal, citing a real fault in the current design paradigm, or at least an enhancement.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

LittleRusty · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:19 pm Post subject:

trumpet56 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623

Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:16 pm Post subject:

The only way to do that would be to machine it in 2 halves, or cast the block and machine the piston chambers to the final diameter.

There are many home casting websites. Set yourself up and 3d print a block and cast it in your backyard.
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VetPsychWars · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject:

You could just look at the Buescher unitized valve blocks from 1935.

Tom
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razeontherock · Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject:

nieuwguyski · Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject:

You appear to be getting pretty close with this:

http://www.bestbrass.com/instruments/
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AlfaFreak · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:53 pm Post subject:

Not a solid piston valve block, but it seems as though this has been done for rotary valve sets already.

https://japanrotarytrumpetcenter.com/Singer-SerieMain.html
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trumpet56 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623

Thank you for the post. I knew I was on to something but it seems it is not viable for piston valves.

J. Landress Brass · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:31 am Post subject:

From a stability standpoint I can see a solid valve block being quite the advantage, however would be extremely difficult to machine and would still need to be made from several pieces and then soldered together as it would be nearly impossible to machine out the inside of the inner connecting valve ports.

The major advantage would be the overall strength of the casing. On trumpets and all brass instruments there are differences in the hardness of the metal in different locations. For example your "hard" parts are going to be slide tubes and crooks (let's exclude lightweight crooks for this example), stamped braces and the inside of the bell bend. Your "soft" spots are mainly in the valve section. This is caused from the need to anneal the metal to braze the ports together. This then makes the metal dead soft and not worked hardened like the "hard" parts which will be more prone to wear and damage.
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AlfaFreak · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject:

Acoustic results aside, I can't see this as being too difficult to achieve with piston valves.

I can't see why methods such as a 3D milling machine or even 3D metal printing couldn't achieve a functional solid piston valve block without tooo much effort.

I guess from the way I see it, the greater public might have to adjust their expectations, acceptance and understanding of construction methods and techniques but then again we all are happy with Schilke electro formed bells etc.

Just thoughts.
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