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AngelRvp
Regular Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Elmwood Park,NJ
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 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: Schilke B1 valves stick |
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I bought my B1 in 1997. For the last few years, my valves keep getting stuck no matter what I do. I have done the following:
Valve alignment
lapped the valve/valve casings
Changed oil: Al Cass, Blue Juice, Ultra Pure
Cleaned trumpet
My trumpet was never dropped or hit. I don't have any dents on the valve casings. The problem started out with the 3rd valve and now its all of them. It just seems to get progressively worse with the time.
Do I need to buy new valves?
_________________
1993 Bach Strad 37
1997 Schilke B1
2016 Yamaha 6310z
I am not judged by the number of times I fail, but by the number of times I succeed! |
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Andy Del
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2662
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Contact Schilke and organise to have it sent there. If it needs new valves, or other work done, they know better than most what to do.
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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jazztrumpetbill
Veteran Member
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 316
Location: Traverse City, MI
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Make sure you use Schilke valve oil or the equivalent thin oil. I had the same problem when I bought my Schilke HC1. After I switched to their oil, no problem.
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Bill
Bb Burbank Benge L
Bb Schilke B1
Olds Silverstar Flugel
King Silvertone Cornet |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | | Contact Schilke and organise to have it sent there. If it needs new valves, or other work done, they know better than most what to do. |
I hope whoever lapped them knew what they were doing!
Yep, contact Schilke directly, those guys are usually very helpful even with older horns.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Why any tech would even think of lapping 20 year old valves is beyond me.
It sounds like they're worn out. Take off the finger buttons, take hold of the valve stems and work them side to side and back and forth. Can you see them move relative to the hole in the top cap? If so, they are worn and will need to be rebuilt. Have it done by a well known valve expert and you will likely end up with the best valves you've ever used!
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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vandenplass
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2014
Posts: 28
Location: canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:07 am Post subject: Schilkés valves. |
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I had exactly the same thing with the valves. I went four times to the repair shop. At the end, I sended the b3 to Shilke. They replaced all the valves for free. Guest what? The same thing happened. I bought another B3 and two years later,the same thing. I tried a lot of different oil's brand with no results. I bought a E3L after that. The same circus began again. I go the repair shop where I bought it, and they suggest to return the horn to Schilke. This time,they email me with a bill of $1,000.00 us if I want the job done. I declined. I owned 3 Yamaha,my best are the C trumpet (Xeno),2 Bach strad (37 and 43b) one Shires eflat. Everyone are reliable.
I tried Warburton cleaner on valves and the Schilke can go for a week.
My best advice, Yamaha and Bach are the end of the misery
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Mendez, Nakariakov , Balsom and Helseth are my best. |
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AngelRvp
Regular Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Elmwood Park,NJ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Schilkés valves. |
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| vandenplass wrote: | I had exactly the same thing with the valves. I went four times to the repair shop. At the end, I sended the b3 to Shilke. They replaced all the valves for free. Guest what? The same thing happened. I bought another B3 and two years later,the same thing. I tried a lot of different oil's brand with no results. I bought a E3L after that. The same circus began again. I go the repair shop where I bought it, and they suggest to return the horn to Schilke. This time,they email me with a bill of $1,000.00 us if I want the job done. I declined. I owned 3 Yamaha,my best are the C trumpet (Xeno),2 Bach strad (37 and 43b) one Shires eflat. Everyone are reliable.
I tried Warburton cleaner on valves and the Schilke can go for a week.
My best advice, Yamaha and Bach are the end of the misery |
I have actually contemplated getting the Yamaha Bobby Shew model. I have a Bach 37 that I got in 93 that has given me ZERO issues. I love my Schilke, but this is ridiculous.
_________________
1993 Bach Strad 37
1997 Schilke B1
2016 Yamaha 6310z
I am not judged by the number of times I fail, but by the number of times I succeed! |
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Andy Del
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2662
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Schilkés valves. |
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[quote="vandenplass]
My best advice, Yamaha and Bach are the end of the misery[/quote]
We all have different experiences, but I have not had an issue with any Schilke valve, even after a lot of playing, nor heard that they are unreasonable in their support of their products. I experienced the opposite in fact, when my Naumann natural trumpet was literally raised from the unplayable to a damn fine and useful instrument for zip.
There must be more to this than all their instruments have crook valves. What are the common denominators?
cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I've had my Schilke P5-4 since 1980 or so when I was working at Schilke's. The only trouble I had was petrolium base oil (like Al Cass) drying up. Since I went to Hetman #1 I've had no issues The valves are Monel (nickle alloy) pistons and brass cylinders, like almost everybody else. They are fitted more tightly than most brands (+- .0002") and then lapped in with a special 800 grit non-imbedding compound. There may be something in your saliva that is causing some corrosion, dissimilar metals tend to have a galvanic reaction and acids in your saliva could be a cause. I would contact Steve "Doctor Valve" Winans with your question. He knows Schilke trumpets inside and out. |
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AngelRvp
Regular Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Elmwood Park,NJ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Ed Kennedy wrote: | | I've had my Schilke P5-4 since 1980 or so when I was working at Schilke's. The only trouble I had was petrolium base oil (like Al Cass) drying up. Since I went to Hetman #1 I've had no issues The valves are Monel (nickle alloy) pistons and brass cylinders, like almost everybody else. They are fitted more tightly than most brands (+- .0002") and then lapped in with a special 800 grit non-imbedding compound. There may be something in your saliva that is causing some corrosion, dissimilar metals tend to have a galvanic reaction and acids in your saliva could be a cause. I would contact Steve "Doctor Valve" Winans with your question. He knows Schilke trumpets inside and out. |
I just ordered the Hetman #1! Let's see how that goes. If it doesn't work, I am going to hit up Doctor Valve.
_________________
1993 Bach Strad 37
1997 Schilke B1
2016 Yamaha 6310z
I am not judged by the number of times I fail, but by the number of times I succeed! |
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vandenplass
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2014
Posts: 28
Location: canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:48 am Post subject: Schilke valves |
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Here's the oils brand I tried. Al Cass (black juice on the valves)
Hetman 1 and 2
Ultra Pure ultra light ( more sticky valves)
La Tromba T2
Vincent Bach (good for a short period)
Yamaha regular (best for the horn)
Schilke Ultra Fast.
I tried olive oil. Good for few minutes.
Now, I drive the valves with Warburton Clean
-Stroke valve wash. Few drops on each valves and you will be amazed.
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Mendez, Nakariakov , Balsom and Helseth are my best. |
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Speed
Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015
Posts: 295
Location: Mississippi
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:17 am Post subject: |
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I have had Steve Winans at Doctor Valve work on the valves on multiple trumpets. He does great work, and he is easy to work with. You can ship your trumpet to him (he offers a shipping kit on his website), and he will then contact you with recommendations. While he has done multiple complete valve rebuilds for me, the last trumpet I sent him, fully expecting a complete rebuild, he recommended a lesser priced procedure that solved the problem.
I can highly recommend him from personal experience for dealing with any valve issues.
Incidentally, unless he has changed recently, he recommends 5 Starr valve oil.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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LSOfanboy
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| vandenplass wrote: | I had exactly the same thing with the valves. I went four times to the repair shop. At the end, I sended the b3 to Shilke. They replaced all the valves for free. Guest what? The same thing happened. I bought another B3 and two years later,the same thing. I tried a lot of different oil's brand with no results. I bought a E3L after that. The same circus began again. I go the repair shop where I bought it, and they suggest to return the horn to Schilke. This time,they email me with a bill of $1,000.00 us if I want the job done. I declined. I owned 3 Yamaha,my best are the C trumpet (Xeno),2 Bach strad (37 and 43b) one Shires eflat. Everyone are reliable.
I tried Warburton cleaner on valves and the Schilke can go for a week.
My best advice, Yamaha and Bach are the end of the misery |
Hi,
Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experience.
Without wanting to be a nuisance I feel someone needs to point out that Schilke E3Ls, G1Ls and P5-4s are the most popular trumpets in their respective pitches amongst professional players across the world.
Notable players to have used/continue to use Schilke trumpets include:
-Wynton Marsalis (E3L, G1L (in E) and P5-4)
-Gabor Tarkovi (Principal of Berlin Phil, E3L and P5-4)
-Maurice Andre (E3L and P5-4 between Selmer and Stomvi)
-Bud Herseth (P5-4, I don't know if there were others)
-Alison Balsom (Schilke artist)
-Maurice Murphy (can be seen using a P5-4 during a youtube video of Pictures (whether it was his own or not is another matter...)
-Paul Beniston (Principal of London Philharmonic E3L and P5-4)
-Markus Wuersch (E3L, G1L, P5-4)
-Chris Martin (Principal NY Phil E3L, P5-4)
-Malcolm Mcnab (now a B&S artist but spent most of his career on an E3L)
There are literally hundreds of other fantastic professionals I could name who play Schilke, and an even greater number of students studying at conservatoires all over the world too.
I would be very slow to write off Schilke...
All the best |
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Manuel de los Campos
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 654
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: |
It sounds like they're worn out. Take off the finger buttons, take hold of the valve stems and work them side to side and back and forth. Can you see them move relative to the hole in the top cap? If so, they are worn |
Unless mr. AngelRvp refuses to do any regular maintenance like keeping the valves oiled and cleening the instrument on the inside on regular base it is very unlikely that Schilke valves worn out in 20 jears of use. In my very small collection I have a professionally played horn from the 60's (the Olds Super) and the valves are still very good.
How to consider valves are good? Worn valves lack compression and compression is easy to judge: just remove the slide from the corresponding valve, oil the valve, press down the valve, close the now open ports of the valve casting with you thumb and suck on your lead pipe. If you feel a sensation of a vacuum that very valve is in good condition. Check all the valves like this.
If your valves have compression and they do stick the problem is somewhere else, like a build up gum of old oil (remove with a degreaser like acetone or purified petrol) or maybe small dents in the valve casting (check by eye) or tension in the valve casting (oval cylinders) but that usually is something exclusif for the second valve since the slide can be easely hurt by an impact.
I think (and do hope) that the instrument still has enough compression and you can solve the problem by a good cleaning otherwise you should consider to send it to Charlie Melk: He turned my worn out 1948 Olds Super into a very good player by plating the valves (at Andersons) and honing them to very narrow specifications, the horn now plays like a new horn 
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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