Beginner on a big mouthpiece, Bb trumpet

[Walter Bone]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here.
This is truly an amazing place where I gathered copious amounts of valuable information.
Now, my very first question:
following the advice of Schilke himself and other fellows, the advice being "get the largest mouthpiece you can find and can play in orther to buld a strong embouchure", I got a Schilke 24 and practicing on it for 2 months now. I have had no problems so far with this approach, given that I have quite full lips. I feel more muscles are involved and getting stronger.
But, are there downsides to this that I am not aware of? Could be there grim consequences in the long run?

[LSOfanboy]

[Walter Bone]

Thanks for the reply.
I am right now in the phase of realising what you say. I am reading right now trumpet literature that is more focused on breathing and wind power, such as "Altissimo Trumpet Playing by David H Lynch (other books recommendations?).
I must say that from a beginner viewpoint "building muscles" makes more sense than to more seasoned players, I'm only 8 months in and I still remember when my facial muscles were weak as butter and it was my n.1 limiting factor.
Another thing is that I find a quite dominant tendency among "YouTube teachers" to just boil the whole business down to "it's just like building muscles at the gym". I hear this thing a lot, but no matter how much strength you have in muscles if when playing high notes you cut the blood flow off and kill your chops. I'm learning that playing efficiently is very, very important. This is quite misleading.

This said, I consider the 24 as my practice mouthpiece, I don't think I will use it for actually play the instrument when times will be ripe. I own other mouthpieces (Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz, 11b4, 16d) and use them as well along with the big Schilke.

[delano]

Bad idea, switching mouthpieces at random is also a bad idea.

[zaferis]

Use the 11b4, and put all the others in a shoe box for experimentation in the future (years).

Yes, there is a modicum on muscle stregth build up that happens over time, BUT it really is a small portion of playing the trumpet. Breath control, oral position (syllables), lip vibration, and finger coordination that are bigger concerns.

I contend that your muscles are already strong enough, but you are playing the trumpet so ineficiently that you're working too hard and feeling the fatigue because of THAT, not because the muscles are weak.

The "size" of the mouthpiece is more related to the trumpet than it is to your face - most (yes, like in everything you can find examples of fringes on both ends-large and small) - BUT MOST accomplished players use mouthpieces that are within a small range of size. IMO because it has to balance the size of the instrument. (you wouldn't expect a trumpet and trombone to use the same mouthpiece - right?)

Dig up some of Jens Lindemann's comments on mouthpiece choice..

Find a teacher, work through some beginning -> intermediate -. advanced method books and spend your time in the "SHED". There are no shortcuts.
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[Walter Bone]

[delano]

The Schilke 24 is ridiculously big and must be considered to be a specialistic thing. For beginners it seems right to start somewhere in the middle, in Schilke terms, something from 11 to 14, Bach 7 to 3. Everything extreme shallow or extreme big is for specialist’s use. The 11B4 is not very small, remember that after the Schilke 24 EVERY mouthpiece will feel small. The advice above for the 11B4 is ok. And if you play a mp, stay with it at least for a few months, changing mp’s all the time makes no sense, you need time on a mp to get used to it. BTW if you succeed in getting a good sound on the 11B4 you learned how to play.

[delano]

Add: the whole muscle thing is BS.

[LSOfanboy]

Hi,

I'll jump back in!

Whilst I think he might be being a little bit harsh about it, I agree with all of Delano's comments.

It doesn't make any sense to change mouthpieces; you don't possess the abilities to benefit from changing, so all it can do is confuse your face.

The idea of using a huge mouthpiece as a 'practice' mouthpiece is not very clever. See the earlier comments about balance and efficiency rather than muscle and power...

Hope this can help.

All the best

[Walter Bone]

Thank you all very much.
I'm still making baby steps so every insight is precious.

On the subject of changing MPs, my humble "experience" so far is that coming down from a bigger rim diameter to a smaller one is way easier than the opposite: this is why practicing on the 24 made sense to me.
The trumpet I bought (a modest Yamaha 2330) came with the 11b4 and the Bobby Shew. Then I bought the 16d, and it was harder. Then came the Schilke 24 and was still harder, even though it's not this unplayable monster IMHO. Yes it is big, but it has a standard C cup and a modest 26 drill throat.
Now, given that the smallers MPs I have aren't completely on the opposite spectrum on the playing characteristics, ie they are not extreme screamers like a 14a4a or a MP JetTone, I don't find switching back to them particularly traumatic. Yep they feel smaller but I don't feel the need to change the embouchure.

I will evaluate to get back to the 11b4, anyway.

[brassmusician]

I beg to differ on the idea that muscular strength of the embouchure is a minor aspect of playing the trumpet. What is the reason a player cannot sustain a page of continuous playing in the middle upper register - say getting through "The trumpet shall sound" in the Messiah? What is the reason a player cannot last through a gig of intense playing? - the embouchure muscles give out, they cannot sustain the effort. There is not a trumpet player alive that has not experienced this physical evidence of the need for muscular strength. Of course the caveat is that good technique, use of air and an efficient embouchure will make the muscles last a lot longer. But to discount or downplay the need for muscular strength in the embouchure, is in my view, misleading.
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[deanoaks]

Full disclosure, I had to look up what exactly a Schilke 24 was thinking people were being silly to call it a specialists mouthpiece and holy ****. I thought I played big mouthpiece...

If you find it working for yourself and satisfying all of your musical needs then I don't see a reason to switch until you find yourself limited by your equipment in a musical context. With a larger mouthpiece, those pitfalls would be endurance, range, projection (higher overtones in sound), flexibility, and so on.
I personally started on a Bach 2B because that's just what there was around and it happened to be such a good fit that I did not change sizes until I left college.

The short answer- Do whatever gets the job done. If this mouthpiece is working for you then do not question it.

[cheiden]

If I had to guess, the percentage of players who thrive on a Schilke 24 are in the low single digits if not less than 1%. The number of qualified teachers who would recommend a student start on a Schilke would be a tiny fraction of that.

Trumpet playing certainly does involve strength, but as much or more it's about balance and coordination. Most players are going to find a mouthpiece size somewhere between the extremes that facilitates finding this balance. If the Yamaha 11/Bach 7 size rim doesn't fit don't hesitate to try the Yamaha 14/Bach 3 size rim. Even the Yamaha 16/Bach 1.5 is more reasonable choice than the Schilke 24. Note that Schilke and Yamaha are numbered about the same.

If you've not read it I recommend finding and reading the "Mouthpiece Rant" by Jens Lindemann.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763
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Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[LSOfanboy]

[Walter Bone]

Just for the sake of discussion, I found an article that I read a while ago:
http://storkcustom.com/how-your-lips-dictate-your-mouthpiece-choice/

Scrolling down a bit you can see a chart with photos of various lips sizes and shapes, and a recommended rim diameter.
What you think? Is it garbage?

[LSOfanboy]

[Walter Bone]

[Vin DiBona]

The Schilke 24 is a very, very specialized mouthpiece. The only players I know of who use(d) one is the late Wilmer Wise and he went much smaller and a terrific trombone player who used it when he played a slide trumpet. He thought is was tiny!
Do yourself a favor and go somewhat more reasonable in diameter. Try something in Schilke 18 or Bach 1C area. Maybe a Stork 2 or 3 and there are plenty of other reasonably priced mouthpiece out there, too.
Lip size has some bearing, but that is not a 100% science. As a GR dealer, I know of some thick lipped players who use mouthpieces in the 16.5mm and under diameters. The Schilke 24 is 18.29MM!!
Ever see Cat Anderson's upper register mouthpiece? Incredibly small. Cat used around a 3C size for other work. Maynard's mouthpiece was small, too.
Don't fall into the bigger is better trap. Not for a beginner, anyway.
R. Tomasek

[kehaulani]

[LSOfanboy]