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Conn 12B; Original or Restored?



 
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J.D. Heckathorn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Conn 12B; Original or Restored? Reply with quote

Hey all,

New user here, I'm a comeback player who while getting my chops back has been looking for some cool Vintage horns to muck around on. My main current horn is a 1940 Conn 22B New York Symphony (garage sale find when I was on vacation sometime in college) with a Curry 5BC piece. The small bore horns feel no smaller than my Bach Large Bore with the right mouthpiece. Intriguing intstruments the vintage Conns.

The horn I always wanted to track down was a good condition specimen Conn 12B Coprion, but was out of my college budget ($0) back when I was playing. The small bore vintage horns were something I enjoyed playing ever since I played my old teachers King Liberty back in high school. Alas in college I was told by faculty teachers/other students I needed the "correct" pro equipment so the 22B took a backseat to the usual Bach 37/1.5C piece. I was never really comfortable with that setup and it may have contributed to my frustration with playing.

This time, I'm focusing on identifying the gear that is best compatible with me and my playing and then running with it. There was a saying I remember hearing once to the effect of : "Don't look for a hardware solution to a software problem".

But who doesn't like gear? I've always been attracted to the older horns, in particular that elusive 12B. Recently I found one for what I considered a reasonable price but was kind of perplexed as to if it was in original condition. Here's the link to the auction with pictures:

https://reverb.com/item/14462291-c-g-conn-coprion-bell-trumpet-brass-coprion

Many of the 12Bs I've seen from some digging in past sales information indicates very few have good condition original lacquers and/or have been relacquered. I want to have one in good condition to play but would also (like many vintage enthusiasts) prefer it to be in as original condition as posssible.

So my question for anyone with vintage conn or vintage expertise is: does the horn above look to be in orig condition? Some pictures make the bell out to look brownish which would indicate original lacquer but then close up pictures make it look "pink" which is from my reading online how they look with relacquer jobs.

Ultimately I'm more concerned with how it plays but was curious to get some horn aficionados thoughts on this horn. I'll post more on it when I receive the horn in the mail.

Apologies for the wall of text, looks like I'm sufficiently caffeinated this morning!
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That very horn is sold
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think J.D. is the one who bought it . . .

J.D. Heckathorn wrote:
I'll post more on it when I receive the horn in the mail.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love that horn. Looks original, like mine. Good price ya got there!

ed
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J.D. Heckathorn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I didn't explain that very well, yes I bought the horn. I was really just looking for some opinions on the condition (orig or not) since there's guys here with many more years knowledge and experience with horns of this vintage.



EdMann wrote:
Love that horn. Looks original, like mine. Good price ya got there!

ed


Hey ed,

Cool, the seller also said as far as he knew it was original but it was a music store selling it and seemed it was clear they didn't know a ton about the horn. At the price it was worth the gamble to see if it was original or not. Regardless looked like a fine player.

Would you happen to have any pictures to share of your 12B, Ed?

J
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not around to do that, but essentially looks just like yours. Pristine valves-- stainless I believe-- and they rarely EVER need oiling. 100% compression, no rot, beautiful sound. I don't play it enough!

ed
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J.D. Heckathorn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the horn in the mail yesterday, snapped a couple pics when then proceeded to noodle around for a few hours. First impressions of this horn are that it is a great example of the Conn 12B; it's a 1948 horn and I don't think it was played much. Some lacquer wear but structurally one of the the better condition 12Bs I've seen. For those of you who are vintage horn guys, some of the the lacquer is "flaking" off if that makes any sense, I'm hesitant to remove the lacquer that's left but would love some opinions on the best course of action. I'm using a Curry 5BC with it and I'm really able to push it, the sound is definitely unique especially compared to my normie Bach. It "rings" in a way that is difficult to put into words.










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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice!
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veery715
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I removed the lacquer from one I used to own, and it made the bell a bit on the orange side! Lacquer darkens copper a bit. Played exceptionally well though. Here's a photo:
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J.D. Heckathorn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

veery715 wrote:
I removed the lacquer from one I used to own, and it made the bell a bit on the orange side! Lacquer darkens copper a bit. Played exceptionally well though. Here's a photo:


Haha still looks zesty as ever, after playing a bit more on the 12B I'm really shocked how much less effort it takes to play than more modern horns. They were on to something with these small bore designs. Your horn looks awesome
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veery715 wrote:
I removed the lacquer from one I used to own, and it made the bell a bit on the orange side! Lacquer darkens copper a bit.


I think the bells were treated. When I had a 12-B restored (since sold), Charlie Melk baked the bell somehow before it was lacquered. Makes it look like the original.

Tom
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plp
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice find.

Now a word of caution. I know exactly what you are saying about the lacquer flaking. It is common for instruments produced post WWII, until they changed the formula to the LustreConn finish sometime around 1960, maybe a little before, maybe a little after.

I have a 1963 80-A Victor cornet that still looks like new, with just a few scratches.

The older nitrocellulose lacquer gets brittle with age, expect to lose it over time. Whether you want to keep it or lose it is your choice.

I had a 1948 80-A that was in absolutely mint condition, not a ding, dent, scratch or one single bit of wear. The case it came in looked to be very similar to yours, in that the interior was still very clean and plush.

It had the most beautiful honey gold lacquer, had aged to just the best patina.

The only thing was, it smelled musty, from sitting in the case all those years. I decided to give it a bath, used Dawn dish detergent and warm water.

I did like I normally do, took it completely apart, put the valves in a separate plastic cup with white vinegar and water, and put it in the big Rubbermaid tub to soak.

Imagine my horror when I came back in an hour later, to find every bit of that gorgeous lacquer floating on the surface of the water. It stripped it to bare brass, while still beautiful had lost that patina.

I don't know how to clean one to preserve the lacquer, others will have to weigh in about what works for them. I can tell you what NOT to do if you want to preserve it.

If you want to strip it bare, hot water and Dawn, and soak for an hour.
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