Not aware of ‘cornet-specific’ technique — is there an

[KnightHorn]

I'm picking the cornet after not playing the trumpet for 30 years. I'm having a blast. Saw the Forum topic and thought I'd ask some questions:

1. Is there any significant technique specific to the cornet vs. the trumpet, or is it mostly subtleties? Not that I was ever a connoisseur of trumpet technique; in the absence of competent training when I was young, I just learned by the seat of pants, being very motivated. But now that I'm picking what I can from Arban, and a friend of mine, and a few videos, I do want to be open to proper instruction.

2. I had an experience when I casually picked up a cornet in a store in 2014, and wonder if any of you can validate or make sense of it: As I said, I played trumpet through my first year of college, then gave it up. About 8 years ago, I walked in to Sam Ash here in NYC and picked up a trumpet. In the soundproof room, I realized not only did I have no chops, I couldn't even get out a squeal. It was pathetic, and to me it was a sign I'd never play again.

However, in 2014, I picked up a cornet at Sam Ash, a vintage YCR-231 in extremely good condition. This time in the soundproof room, I was very surprised I could get out real notes (and of course I remembered my fingerings), and realized I was not finished as a horn player.

I put the horn on layaway, and after faithfully paying for it, took it home. I'm now taking it out every day, noodling around, gradually running through simply Arban exercises, and carefully getting my chops back in shape.

So this is my question: Is there something about the cornet's semi-conical shape, vs. the trumpet's cylindrical shape that makes playing a bit easier? Or was this in my imagination?

Your thoughts are welcome.

[Didymus]

According to Robb Stewart (link: https://www.robbstewart.com/difference-between-trumpet-and-cornet/), modern cornets and modern trumpets are basically the same instrument with different tubing wraps. I know many disagree, and I share Mr. Stewart's opinion with all due respect to those who are required to play instruments with the Shepherd's Crook wrap in certain situations. Having written that, the more conical the tubing of a brass instrument, the more forgiving it is to play.

[KnightHorn]

Didymus, thank you for the interesting link. I am learning more about trumpets and cornets than I ever did when I played.

I was curious about the old Courtois illustration in the article listing several horns, with references to various crooks, e.g., the C trumpet with B natural, B flat and A crooks. The Besson 1910 illustration also showed horns pictured with extra crooks.

In the past, were trumpets made with additional slides that could be swapped out to turn a C trumpet to a B flat trumpet? Which slide was it? By the illustration, they look too large to be the third slides. I take it that would be the tuning slide at the end nearest the mouthpiece.

Would it be possible that with an additional slide, I could effectively turn my B flat cornet into a C cornet? If I pull out my tuning slide to lower the pitch one-half step, would that be an effective conversion?

[Didymus]

I'm just a comeback player with no real expertise. As far as I could tell, it was once common for instrument makers to make trumpets and cornets which could play in various keys. Those older instruments often had extra sets of tuning slides, valve slides, and leadpipe extensions to accomplish this. Others came with crooks or leadpipe extensions and markings on the valve slides to indicate where to pull them to. Newer instruments most commonly are built to play in one key, sometimes two if it's a smaller instrument. Here and there you can find some new piccolo trumpets which can play in 3 keys.

The French Besson design for the modern instrument can be configured to play in either Bb or A, simply by pulling all 4 slides out by certain amounts. Pre-war manufacturers would sometimes make trumpets/cornets with "fast change to A" levers which pulled and set the slides for you. Some new instruments can still do this with varying results even if the manufacturer doesn't say it's possible; in one way I guess you can consider it to be a deprecated feature of that particular trumpet design.

(All the experienced players I have spoken to say it's more reliable to learn how to make the transposition from Bb to A instead of pulling the slides.)

Vincent Bach used to sell optional slides for their C trumpets to convert them into Bb trumpets. All the experienced players on this board who have tried those slides say that the resulting Bb trumpet has horrible intonation. Until recently, Vincent Bach also used to offer a fast change to A option lever for its Bb trumpets. I don't see it in their catalog anymore.

As for your specific question, you would have to cut down the valve slides and leadpipe of your Bb cornet to make it into a C cornet. Then somehow craft a set of slides or spacers you can switch to in order to return the instrument to Bb. Not worth it, IMO. Simply buy a C cornet when you think you're ready. I'm unsure if the model cornet you have can be "pulled to A" since it's not a French Besson design.

[KnightHorn]

Thanks, my question was more theoretical — I have no interest in actually converting my own horn. I find this all fascinating because this is the first time in my life I am really learning about my horn, what it is meant to do, how it achieves that, the construction, care, etc.

Since I met my phantom trumpet player (see my thread in the Comeback form), he’s pointed me in so many good directions. The biggest lessons were 1] read Arban and master the exercises; and 2] start carefully and gradually build your embouchure so you don’t injure it. He also got me to pick up the remaining accessories I needed to take care of my horn. (This guy is an amazing player; has recorded with Wynton Marsalis, plays at Live at Lincoln Center and all over the world, and is not only an incredible player, but but a generous person and a good friend.)

It is great to learn from people like you who can point me in the direction of information. Thanks.

[Didymus]

There are quite a few participants on this message board who know a lot about the history of the trumpet & cornet, about the different designs manufacturers used over the last 100+ years..... I wish one of them could or will comment on this thread.

[Bob Stevenson]

Interesting.....

To take the first question re; a "specific technique"; it really depends on several variables, namely, where you are playing your cornet,...what 'type' of cornet playing you do,.....what level are you playing at.

Taking this at it's highest aim and assuming that we are discussing the cornet soloists of the worlds top brass bands here in the UK then we can look at some very specific techniques and methodology that is unlikley to be on the radar of, say, a skilled trumpet player in a symphony orchestra in the US.

Perhaps more important than any technique is the 'style' required by top cornet exponents...and this DOES impact on specific techniques. to mention but one example area, many trumpet players in non-orchestral ensembles play with a rich 'smoky' style which actually requires the inner body of the lip to vibrate ....many top cornet soloists are bound by UK band playing and require a crisp articulation which usually happens with the outside 'edge' of the lip being very important......

To move swiftly on to your last question about conical shape......many modern makers (especially in the US) have a very different view of cornet needs to top solo players so there has been a tendency for them to use many common components between their cornet and trumpet models...However, please note that in a 'real' cornet the leadpipe is conical for a much longer length than in many modern trumpets....In my 'round stamp' B&H Sovereign cornet the leadpipe is 14 inches between the mpc receiver and the waterkey...in many/most trumpets the tapered/conical length from mpc to tuning slide is about 8 inches. also note that the 'gap' is crucial to good facility and tunefulness in trumpets but a cornet does not have a 'gap'.....

Enough for a start....

[KnightHorn]

My takeaway from this, so far, is that as a Comeback player who used to play trumpet and is now picking up the cornet — and who was never really provided what I would call any competent training or knowledge of the horn (I was motivated and musical and picked up what I needed on my own), for someone like me, the difference in a cornet and trumpet are, for now, negligible. I should just focus on becoming the best horn player I can, hitting my Arban and gradually building my facility and my chops. I suppose one day once I’ve got my chops back, if I pick up a trumpet I will learn to adjust to the specific horn. And I’m guessing most of the techniques I’ll learn will be applicable to the trumpet, if I ever decided to pick it up again (although I really love the cornet).

[Bob Stevenson]

I can't emphasise enough that there really is NO similarity between being a good cornet player and being a good trumpet player.....In many ways these are musical contradictions.......

........Why no try to be the best cornet player you can be?

[Richard III]

[blbaumgarn]

I like Richard III comment and I agree from personal experience. I had limited experence playing cornet until I went to college and landed a seat in symphonic band. The director favored six cornets and a 1st, and 2nd trumpet. We were given Getzen Etermas. so that became my use horn every day. I ended up playing the cornet for my juries and other things while I stayed in school. I found the cornet to be easier to master technical passages on (for whatever reason), and the trumpet was a joy once a week in lab band. Some months ago I bought a slightly used trumpet and started up again after nearly 20 years. A friend had sent me a vintage King cornet. The cornet opened up easier to me than the trumpet through the low to high range, but the horn needs a valve job. I love playing the cornet and loved being part of a section in college where there was a uniformity of sound from the horns. I am, however, a trumpet lover and deep in my heart I keep wanting to play and hearing Maynard Ferguson's Chameleon or Bill Chase's "Get it On." Both horns have a definite following and use. In the end I love the big bold sound of the trumpet. You are making music on a cornet just the same, Enjoy what you have got!!
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush

[delano]

Though Bob Stevenson is completely right in respect of the top of the BBB scene there are only tiny minor unimportant technical differences between trumpet and cornet for the less ambitious. Biggest difference could be the mouthpiece you want to use on the cornet and probably you will need some stylistic adaption to the cornet.

[Seymor B Fudd]

[delano]

BTW, this composition by mr. Bellstedt is written for trumpet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWzhIB58hE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em0TsuM5pyU

[LSOfanboy]

Hi,

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I am respectful of that.

Personally I disagree with a number of the statements that have been made throughout this thread.

To answer the original question; no, there is no difference in technique between the trumpet and cornet, the harmonic series, valve combinations and general physics of the standing wave are the same for both instruments.

The only difference between the instruments is the sweeter and rounder sound of the cornet (due to the conical bore and use of (generally) a slightly deeper mouthpiece) and the stylistic nuances- which doesn’t actually extend far beyond a different style of vibrato.

I have to say that I wholly disagree with some of the comments that ‘Orchestral players can’t do what brass band players can’- that implies that players such as Gabor Tarkovi or Chris Martin aren’t able to play an air and variation or a lyrical melody....?

What is more, a great deal of (particularly British) Orchestral trumpet players have come from a brass band background (I myself have brass band roots) and I don’t think they would suggest that there are huge differences in style between cornet and trumpet; good lyrical playing and articulation is common to both, as well as musical phrasing and smooth production. James Watson, Maurice Murphy, Phil Cobb, James Fountain and Phil Smith in America all came through brass band upbringings and are all truly wonderful trumpet players.

I accept the point that Big Band lead playing is different to Brass Band playing, but that is more about differences in genre than the instruments themselves- a great lead trumpet player would sound like a great lead trumpet player on a cornet or trumpet. Symphonic playing and Brass Band playing share many similarities. And one could also point out the huge difference in style between Symphonic playing and Big Band lead playing, so I don’t think that is a particularly useful point.

When all is said and done, have a listen and then come back and say whether you think there is a massive difference in terms of the technical and stylistic playing of Richard Marshall, David Daws or Roger Webster and then Symphonic heroes like Tim Morrison, Chris Martin, Gabor Tarkovi, Phil Cobb and Maurice Murphy. Personally I think they all exhibit the facets of fantastic musical players and, subtle differences aside, prove that there is not some vast chasm between cornet and trumpet playing.

Hope this can add to the discussion.

All the best

[delano]

Yes, that's what I meant with my modest post above. Stylistic, often subtle differences, maybe even important, but no technical big things. Well said.
I'll add one of my favorites, Hans Gansch, yes a real trumpetplayer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9UmCSc3W2s

[Seymor B Fudd]

[LSOfanboy]

[Seymor B Fudd]

[trUMBet67]

not sure if this could be useful, but I own both a Conn 38B Connstellation and its sister 28A Connstellation long model cornet.
I also own the trumpet and cornet version of the same MF FBL mouthpiece (made in England).
Trumpet and cornet sounds and slots different for me. Even if the only difference is the leadpipe, this influences the harmonics, so (other than timbre, or "colour")how the horn slots and feels.
_________________
Umberto -
Bb: Taylor Chicago II Lite,Conn 38B,Olds Super,Olds Recording,Conn 22B (3),Bach 180 37 modified
C: SLB Callet New York
Flugel: Getzen Eterna 895S-T
Cornet: Getzen Eterna 800 LB Copper,Conn 28A,B&H Imperial
Piccolo: Schilke Herald Bb/A