Piston vs rotary flugelhorns

Tivolian · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:51 pm Post subject: Piston vs rotary flugelhorns

I’m wondering about differences in sound and feel between piston and rotary valve flugels. I’ve never played a rotary one nor even heard one being played. I understand that rotary flugels are generally played in classical settings but wonder if they’re ever played in jazz settings. If not, why not. Is it harder to be nimble with fast fingerings with rotary, or to adjust to holding the horn at a different angle? Thanks in advance for thoughts and experiences.
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outskiing · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject:

I believe that Claudio Roditi plays a rotary valve flugelhorn at times. I know that he plays jazz on a rotary trumpet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-FmBbR1iMU

and here's Jimmy Owens playing Boblicity on a rotary valve flugelhorn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WRvn66FwBc

jump to 3:41 for the song.
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Steve A · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:18 pm Post subject:

I don't think I've ever seen a rotary flügelhorn in a classical setting, at least not in North America. It's always been piston. I haven't seen them often in jazz either - most of the rotary flügels I've seen used were in Balkan brass groups.

dershem · Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:08 pm Post subject:

delano · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:00 am Post subject:

Though I am no way a rotary flugelhorn expert I can give some information because I own one, a German built Miraphone. As far as I know the rotary flügels are used in Germany and around as a kind of melody instrument like the trumpet. They are loud and somehow dark sounding. But they are played with a quite shallow mouthpiece with some kind of a trumpet shank. It's called the Deutsche Schaft (German shank) and it's a trumpetshank but a little shorter. Your trumpet mouthpiece will fit but can cause intonation problems, I am not sure.

https://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/bruno-tilz-210-s4-deutsch.html

The older rotary valves can be a little slow but the newer ones with the Minibal connections are quite good and fast. Some pro players have their irreplacable Heckels and other old gems rebuilt with that linkage. (on the photo: old left, new right).

https://www.facebook.com/MusikhausLanghammer/photos/a.413080632056453/1140028736028302/?type=3&theater

I don't think the rotary flügel is very suitable for jazz, the sound is somehow too massive, but who knows, in jazz everything is possible if you have the right idea. Anyway, the sound of the rotary flügel is quite different than that of the piston flügel so if you are looking for a common jazz flügel sound, buy a piston flügel.
But: there are all kind of rotary flügels, Thomas Gansch plays the Schagerl Killer Queen, a TARV flügel which sounds in his hands quite good. Maybe that is not a typical rotary flügelhorn.
BTW I remember that I read somewhere that Jimmy Owens played a 4-valve Alexander rotary flügel.

zaferis · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:42 am Post subject:

There is a player in my area who's been using a rotary valve Flugel. So, they are out there.

Here's my take on some generalities: A rotary valve has more mass and bracing; anytime you add weight you change sound. Of the Rotary Flugels I've seen the bore is on the smaller side and bells likewise. Then with the action of a rotary valve, the action from port to port is very quick but finding a half-valve slot is nearly impossible and the linkage adds load to the stroke, thus heavier and prone to need care and adjustment.
Overall, the sound and play is different than a piston valved Flugel - so blend with a section might be a struggle.

What's your gig? Are you the soloist upfront, combo, etc where you have no worries about blend? Or are you in a section where blend is important?

IMO go piston valve until you're the star and can play whatever you like.
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Tivolian · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:52 am Post subject:

Thanks for the helpful replies. My "gig" is that I'm 1.5 years into my "comeback" and as of yet only playing trumpet in community orchestra, concert band, and a street-style jazz band. I really love the flugel sound and my next serious task is developing my jazz playing. I have a somewhat frustrating cheap flugel and am looking to upgrade. I've been curious about the European style rotary flugels, but the responses to my questions are helping me stick to the piston valve option. Now to simultaneously save up $$ for one and practice enough so I can justify the purchase.
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Dennis78 · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:55 am Post subject:

http://www.austincustombrass.mybigcommerce.com/brasspire-unicorn-850-flugelhorn-in-silver-plate-incredible-value-and-playability/

Probably a safe bet!
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zaferis · Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:24 am Post subject:

If you're looking for a "can't miss" Flugel.. Yamaha 631G (and they're not the most expensive) - new less than 2k and can find them used. If you look used, just be aware that the older ones are a bit notorious for valve issues.
I just picked up a new one, valves are really nice.

If you're looking on the cheap, Austin Brass "ACB Doubler"

If you win the lottery: Adams F1
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Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

I have built about a half dozen rotary flugels with my Scodwell USA bell and leadpipes utilizing Cerveny/Amati rotors with quite good results including the one I perform on. With the newer mini-ball linkages I feel the response and sound quality is comparable to my piston models. My problem these days is obtaining the rotors as the company has been bought by Majestic and even my dealer in Prague can't seem to get them for me. The "standard" European flugelhorns I've played on do have different tone and response due to the bells and leadpipes used and usually the mouthpiece shank is different than a Bach taper flugel piece. They play OK but much better after I fit my bell and leadpipe. If you find an older Amati rotary trumpet or flugel you can adapt the valves with a proper bell and leadpipe and come up with a pretty good playing rotary flugel.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284

Thein Instruments (pronounced "tine") makes both 3- and 4-valve flugelhorns, and they offer them with both piston and rotary valves. Matthias Höfs of the German Brass plays this brand.

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/02-01-fluegelhorn.php?lang=en

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/02-05-deutsches-fluegelhorn-b-4v.php

I had inquired of the company over a year ago, and they said that their 4v rotary was $7000 (USD) and up, depending on features. I was particularly interested in that model, since it came with a Pitchfinder (not the original Jack Holland model, but that's what they call it), where the left thumb actuates a ring-with-rod to the main tuning slide (which is closer to the bell flare) and can manipulate both higher and lower than the detente position of the tuning slide. Most flugels are tuned at the mouthpipe, but the Thein rotary flugel is not. Before Marcinkiewicz retired their instrument construction a couple of years ago, they made 3v and 4v piston flugels with a tuning slide, but not tuned at the mouthpipe at all. Tony Scodwell's (3v) piston flugel can uniquely be tuned at both the mouthpipe and tuning slide.

Lister Andy Del contributed in a TH thread in the summer of 2017 that the Thein 4v rotary flugel would be too dark for a jazz band. Maybe some mouthpiece adjustments could be made for the sound to blend. It does seem like it would work well as a solo instrument, though, both jazz and classical.

The main issue I'd see with a rotary-valve flugel is making page turns. Most piston-valve flugels offer a right hand pinky hook/ring for holding the horn easily with one hand when necessary. To accommodate this maneuver with a rotary in hand, you have to angle the horn downward toward the right, and then cup the right hand and cushion the slides at the heel of the hand, and then turn the page with the left hand. All of this could be somewhat unwieldy. It would definitely be a challenge to operate the valves in this position....not impossible to manipulate...just not as easy as with a piston flugel.

Brassnose · Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:02 am Post subject:

I prefer rotaries because of the ergonomics and the very quick and quiet valves. Plus I feel it is like with the piston instruments: there are the big dark ones and there are the lighter ones. The statement that rotaries are only used in Balkan brass bands is not completely wrong but over here there are many orchestras (wind bands in the US?) that use rotaries.

@ Tony Scodwell: why don’t you buy the valve blocks from the well established and highly reputed makers Zirnbauer or Meinlschmidt? Pretty sure they would sell to you

plus the valves are much better than Amati (I know, have played both and my soon to be ordered rotary Flugel will have a Meinlschmidt Block).
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scottfsmith · Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:36 am Post subject:

I have both a piston and a rotary, the rotary is an old Bohemian instrument. It has an identical bore size to the Yamaha etc, but the bell throat is wider which makes the sound more "throaty". The mouthpiece on these traditional ones as was mentioned above is shallow (more like a cornet mouthpiece) but you can also put a deeper piece into it and it sounds more like a standard flugel and should work well in any setting where a standard flugel was used. I like how the rotary valves on my flügel have a shorter travel distance of the fingers, it makes it a little easier to play.
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cheiden · Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:09 am Post subject:

Didymus · Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:54 am Post subject: Question:

This is going to read like a completely ignorant question, but since I never played a rotary trumpet or flugelhorn and I rarely get to hear them live in a setting other than classical, I just don't know.....

Is it possible to do all those half-valve effects and the like on rotary trumpets and flugels? I never heard players like Claudio Roditi or Wilbur Harden use them in their playing, and up to now I figured it was a style decision on their part.
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Brassnose · Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:12 pm Post subject:

I did hear Thomas Gansch live do half valve effects on his tarv trumpet. So it is possible but I think rather tricky.
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

cheiden · Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:58 pm Post subject:

Thomas Gansch himself soloing on the horn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB7ECnKwxAo
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dstpt · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284