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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:04 pm Post subject: How to Strive for a Sound |
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My sound has become a lot more open, but now I desire it to have resonance, smoothness and character. I feel like my sound is kinda dead.
How can I get a more resonant sound?
They say there should be a certain sound in your head that you strive for, and I’d love to sound like Wynton. He has by far my favorite sound.
Beyond just listening to him, how can I sound more like Mr. Marsalis? |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:16 am Post subject: Re: How to Strive for a Sound |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | My sound has become a lot more open, but now I desire it to have resonance, smoothness and character. I feel like my sound is kinda dead.
How can I get a more resonant sound?
They say there should be a certain sound in your head that you strive for, and I’d love to sound like Wynton. He has by far my favorite sound.
Beyond just listening to him, how can I sound more like Mr. Marsalis? |
I think a lot of players would want the answer to that question too.
Wynton has dedicated his entire life to the instrument, not only was he blessed with a natural start (he never experienced any major issues in terms of range and endurance, it was just a case of practicing and developing without any big resets (remember he performed the Brandenburg at the age of 16)) but also with an astonishing intelligence, drive and patience.
Whilst I can't tell you how to reach that level of ability, I can tell you that Wynton's concentration and dedication to making a great sound (and great music) is on an astonishing level. He strives to make literally every single note he produces sound exactly as he wants, and if you could manage even 75% of his intensity of focus, you would make great strides in your playing.
Wynton also talks about soft long notes as an integral part of his development (more so when he was younger than these days) and I have heard it remarked by several musicians who have played alongside him that his production is virtually flawless, and this is also an element he has been incredibly dedicated to.
A concept Wynton has passed on is the idea of starting a note (in practice not in performance) in a three step fashion, the control of which leads to great production. You should start the air through very relaxed lips, hearing nothing but air. Then the second phase occurs when the pitch of the note starts to 'appear' in the air (like the softest whisper tone), this transitions into the third phase as the note becomes pure. To do this in a consistent and controlled manner is very difficult. It is best started on a low C or second line G and developed until you are able to transition through the phases seamlessly, as fast or slowly as you wish.
In term of his equipment; Wynton uses a fairly large mouthpiece (currently its a variant of the Monette B2 S5 (which itself is a variant of the B2 S3 (which itself is based on a Bach 1 1/4C but with a much more open throat and backbore))) and uses a Monette trumpet (originally they were very heavy but over the years he has moved to lighter instruments, although they are still weightier than 'conventional' equipment).
I hope that can be of some use.
All the best |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:51 am Post subject: |
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You'll have to start with buying a Monette Raja P3 STC. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2329 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:04 am Post subject: |
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||: LISTEN, practice (especially soft, slow), study :||
His equipment is a significant part of that sound, but also realize that he is a soloist, not necessarily a tone that would blend well in a section. (not a diss of his playing or music -just that if he was making a living in a section, his equipment/sound would most likely be different)
Depends what your roll is. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Thanks very much for the replies so far!
Yes, I know that I am unable to sound exactly like him without Monette equipment, but I am hoping that as I strive for his sound, I might catch a better sound on the way.
How can I add resonance to my sound? |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Trying to sound like someone else isn't likely to be successful. Doc doesn't sound like Maynard who doesn't sound like Al Hirt who doesn't sound like Chet Baker etc. etc. When they were kids they all listened to players they ended up sounding nothing like.
You don't have Wynton's physical tools, skillset or equipment all of which contribute to his sound. Wynton also sounds different depending on whether he's in jazz mode or classical mode.
Work on being as good a player as you can be. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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You are actually on the right track. Adjusting one's tonal character is not so much a matter of equipment, but of concept.
Can you hear the sound you want in your head? If you can hear it, and then attempt to emulate it, thinking and continuing to work at it will allow your body to adjust to get closer to that sound. My students seem to be constantly amazed that only a few things can go so far in helping them sound good.
They tend to be:
Caring. Try hard and want it.
Breathing. ill up and breath more than you think you need to.
Air flow. Move it! Much faster than you think you need to.
Aural imagery. Hear it in your head, and then go play it like that. Repeat until you can. What goes for tone can also go for resonance, projection, etc.
Repetition. And gain. And again, until you can't get it wrong.
That's usually enough to take up an hour's lesson! I hope that helps a bit.
There is also the spectre of equipment. In essence, unless you have something right out of the ordinary, you'll only need tweaking, Such as go from a 1 1/4C to a 1 1/2C if you have fluffy articulation. Or, if your trumpet is actually limiting you, it's time to go shopping.
BTW - what does your teacher say?
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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How loud is that sound in your head? How vivid is it? It's one thing to have sound models (it's a good thing); it's another thing to own it in your mind's ear. It's a lifetime commitment to developing your musical imagination.
Beyond that, seeking the free and relaxed use of your air (relaxed, not collapsed) and playing in the most resonant part of each note (chase the sound where it rings out) goes a long way.
It's also important to keep in mind the difference in sound behind the bell vs. in the hall. Recording yourself can be a good way to calibrate this difference. A resonant, projecting can sound "bright" and harsh to the player depending on their perspective. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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A somewhat related question: does anyone out there ever hear two sounds in his head he or she would likely use or feels as their go-to personal sounds?
In many respects the sound in my head is clear, rather bright, but not overly aggressive - in a way think piccolo trumpet one octave lower. The other sound is much mellower, rather cornetty (is that a word?) than trumpet, think Matthias Eick or Ambrose Akinmusire in some recordings (yeah, I know they are trumpet players).
How do you go about that? Do you have days where you think I feel like playing like Maynard and other days where you think I feel like playing Chet style? _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Derek Reaban Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 4221 Location: Tempe, Arizona
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:10 am Post subject: |
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For a more resonant sound, a downward sit may help. Also look into the note bending and strength exercises in the John Daniel book. Mark Inouye had a thought provoking comment that sticks with me. "When you miss a note, the note you miss is never the problem. It’s the note just before (typically off centered)!" I saw him apply this concept in a masterclass:
Quote: | This group had a true individual teaching moment that was very powerful, and very unexpected. I am not familiar with the Hary Janos excerpt that they were playing, but the first trumpet part had a line that ascended, and then had a large slurred interval to a lower pitch that then resolved to the root. One of the players cracked this slurred interval a couple of times and Mark paused and asked him to try a few different things. He said that he was missing the lower pitch because he was too tight, and he needed to hear the line more clearly. Then he used a tool that I have in my tool belt, but have never considered to use in the way that he suggested. For the sake of example, let's say the line ascended to A above the staff, slurred to B natural in the middle of the staff and then resolved to 3rd space C (if someone reading this can add the specific line that would be helpful).
Mark played the line and said, not only was the lower note uncentered, it was almost the next half step higher, and that was due to tightness and why it was being cracked. He said, "Try this" and played from the A down to the B natural, but fingered the B natural open, all valves up. This requires both strength and flexibility, but most importantly requires that you are hearing the B natural very clearly. He did this a couple of times and asked the player on stage to try it. Each time the student tried, he found it very difficult to play the B natural open (he was simply too tight). Mark then commented that he liked to play scales in this way, for instance a B major scale, but fingered using C major fingerings for each of the notes and commented that he thought this was in one Dave's books. While I think he is right (Possibly Trumpet Lessons with David Hickman), I know this set of exercises from the book "Special Studies for Trumpet" by John Daniel (exercise 3 in the Strength Section). I've worked out of this book going on about a year now, and this tool is clearly in my belt, but to apply it in this way is something that I have never considered! What great troubleshooting! I will keep this in mind and hope I can retrieve this when I have an issue with tightness (I know this can get to the heart of the matter immediately). |
Less tension in the way you produce sound will allow a more vibrant sound with more strength in the overtones. _________________ Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Listen to find the common thread between players such as Doc Severinsen, Bud Herseth, Maurice Andre, Phil Smith, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown, Snooky Young...................
Aim for that. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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lakejw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Brooklyn, New York
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:37 am Post subject: Re: How to Strive for a Sound |
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LSOfanboy wrote: | Wynton also talks about soft long notes as an integral part of his development (more so when he was younger than these days) and I have heard it remarked by several musicians who have played alongside him that his production is virtually flawless, and this is also an element he has been incredibly dedicated to. |
I agree that you will find resonance through soft long tones. Very soft, almost a whisper.
Of course, I love Wynton's sound now, but I also agree with other posters that his equipment is a significant part of that sound. Check out Wynton's earlier recordings where he's playing more standard equipment (a Bach Vindabona, if I recall). He has a beautiful, balanced sound. Search videos on youtube, I'm sure you can find some.
Ultimately if you really want to get that specific sound you may have to make an equipment change, but you should first work to get more resonance on the equipment you are familiar with. _________________ New Album "ensemble | in situ" on Bandcamp
johnlakejazz.com |
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Dave CCM/SSO Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2015 Posts: 145 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
In addition to listening to players who's sounds are appealing to you, I'd like to emphasize something a bit different than what you've heard here so far. To me, efficiency and proficiency of technique is very important.
It is undoubtedly important to have clear images in your mind of what you're going for, but it's also very important to understand what efficient tone production requires. It is actually possible to create bad playing habits by "trying" too hard to sound like someone else. To a certain degree, we each are going to sound the way we sound based on our physiology. For example, someone 4.5 feet tall with a 3 liter lung capacity and an under-bite will most likely have a different sound than Phil Smith if they were both playing the same equipment. That is, if they were both playing with good technique and a clear, resonant tone.
In my opinion, it's important to develop on some very middle of the road equipment and focus on efficiency, resonance, and ease of tone production. When a certain level of proficiency has been achieved, adjusting equipment can aid in changing the tone color that is being produced. Knowing what is required for basic, clear production can allow you to experiment with different equipment without the variable of you changing the way you play. Allow your approach to develop into a solid understanding of the fundamentals.
Just my 2 cents. Have fun!! _________________ Dave
Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Dave.
You are encouraging middle of the road equipment, but that phrase means different things to different people. To be clear about your recommendation, what average diameter of mouthpiece does "middle of the road" mean to you?
Thanks again. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Dave CCM/SSO wrote: | It is actually possible to create bad playing habits by "trying" too hard to sound like someone else. To a certain degree, we each are going to sound the way we sound based on our physiology. ..
...it's important to develop on some very middle of the road equipment and focus on efficiency, resonance, and ease of tone production. .. |
My own experiences and mistakes are consistent with this sentiment. Get the best tone production you can out and that's how You sound. If it is efficient and resonant it will sound good, even if not like Wynton. Forget him, you're playing a trumpet so it will have the sound characteristic of that. I wasted a lot of time trying to make a specific sound using my chops which wasn't a bright trumpet sound concept, and that's what made the sound dead in the first place. As I understand, the resonance will be from a clean buzz in tune with the tubing length. |
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Dave CCM/SSO Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2015 Posts: 145 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
When I say "middle of the road" equipment, it is intentionally vague. There are many factors that can play a part. An adult with full lips will need a different "middle of the road" mouthpiece than a 5th grade beginner with very thin lips, for example.
I will say that I encourage the majority of my students from 5th grade through senior year of high school to stay somewhere between a 7c and 3c mouthpiece. Very often a beginner in 5th grade will begin on a 7c and play that for several years. I often encourage the more serious students to move to a 3c as they get older and their bodies have grown. At this point, they have larger lung capacities and their lips are often physically bigger than several years before. I personally like the 3c as an all around mouthpiece. I find it to be big enough to get a full sound, and small enough for endurance to be manageable for most high school students that are taking it seriously.
There are, of course, always exceptions. I've had students do incredibly well on a 7c all the way through college, and I've had students use much larger equipment.
I personally play Laskey 80 rim mouthpieces which is essentially a mount Vernon Bach 1C diameter. I do not consider this to be middle of the road. I have been playing for over 25 years, and practice at least 2 hours a day as part of my professional life. I have never encouraged a student in high school or younger to play anything that large. It simply takes a higher level of proficiency and efficiency than they have developed. It's also somewhat specialized equipment, in my opinion. I am primarily a classical/orchestral player. I very rarely play anything outside of that genre. If I was playing big band gigs or lots of musicals, I would adjust to something that was more well suited to that style of playing.
The key is to find something that is not too big, allows for a clear ringing sound, and allows for embouchure norms. (a healthy balance of top and bottom lip, etc.)
Those are just my ideas, of course.
Best of luck! _________________ Dave
Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
- www.springfieldsym.org
Seven Hills Brass
- http://www.facebook.com/sevenhillsbrass |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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It is common for trumpet players to want to sound like this player or that player or some other player and the advice given is typically to listen to that player and get that sound in your head. The problem with that is that the "think system" is not really a very practical or effective method to sound like someone else. Sound on the trumpet is a matter of physiology and mechanics and there are a lot of variables that can be very personal to a particular player. It can be virtually impossible for a particular player to sound like another particular player.
Miles Davis said, "Man, sometimes it can take you a long time to sound like yourself." His point was that there are a wide variety of "good" sounds produced on the trumpet and that you're better off to cultivate your natural version of "good" sound rather than to try to imitate someone elses' "good" sound that your physiology and other unique variables don't fit.
It's a lot like trying to imitate someone's voice. James Earl Jones sounds the way he does primarily because of his physiology. He has certainly cultivated his sound but its basis is in his physiology. Apparently my physiology is much different than his because I don't sound anything like him. On the other hand, apparently his physiology is much different than mine because he doesn't sound anything like me. Yet we both speak the same language.
So much of the issue here is how you define "good" sound. It may not be physically realistic for a player to expect to sound even close to the sound produced by Phil Smith or Maynard or Clark Terry or Chet Baker or Wynton or some other player. However, just among those 5 players there is a large range of sound characteristics. Which of the 5 players has the "best" sound? Beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.
Just because you have a "sound concept" doesn't mean you are equipped to ever produce that sound. I've yet to hear a trumpet player that is a chameleon, who can imitate a variety of sounds on demand, who can freely and easily switch between sounding like like Phil Smith, Maynard, Clark Terry, Chet Baker, Wynton, etc.
I think Miles made a good point: Find your own sound and make it the best it can be. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | It is common for trumpet players to want to sound like this player or that player or some other player and the advice given is typically to listen to that player and get that sound in your head. The problem with that is that the "think system" is not really a very practical or effective method to sound like someone else. Sound on the trumpet is a matter of physiology and mechanics and there are a lot of variables that can be very personal to a particular player. It can be virtually impossible for a particular player to sound like another particular player.
Miles Davis said, "Man, sometimes it can take you a long time to sound like yourself." His point was that there are a wide variety of "good" sounds produced on the trumpet and that you're better off to cultivate your natural version of "good" sound rather than to try to imitate someone elses' "good" sound that your physiology and other unique variables don't fit.
It's a lot like trying to imitate someone's voice. James Earl Jones sounds the way he does primarily because of his physiology. He has certainly cultivated his sound but its basis is in his physiology. Apparently my physiology is much different than his because I don't sound anything like him. On the other hand, apparently his physiology is much different than mine because he doesn't sound anything like me. Yet we both speak the same language.
So much of the issue here is how you define "good" sound. It may not be physically realistic for a player to expect to sound even close to the sound produced by Phil Smith or Maynard or Clark Terry or Chet Baker or Wynton or some other player. However, just among those 5 players there is a large range of sound characteristics. Which of the 5 players has the "best" sound? Beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.
Just because you have a "sound concept" doesn't mean you are equipped to ever produce that sound. I've yet to hear a trumpet player that is a chameleon, who can imitate a variety of sounds on demand, who can freely and easily switch between sounding like like Phil Smith, Maynard, Clark Terry, Chet Baker, Wynton, etc.
I think Miles made a good point: Find your own sound and make it the best it can be. |
Hi,
I think this is a very sensible and intelligent post.
For the most part, I would agree entirely with it.
I think that the penultimate paragraph ('Just because you have a "sound concept"....etc') is open to debate and depends a little on your attention to detail. I would agree that no two players can sound perfectly identical, and scientific analysis of the overtones within their playing would reveal slight differences, but I do think that there are some exemplary players working on the studio/session scene (especially in London and LA) who are very adept at adjusting their sound concept to fit certain requirements. Sometimes it can be staggering watching some of the guys changing their whole way of playing, and tone, in an instant in order to deliver the effect they want in the recording studio.
Of course, this is something they have spent many years perfecting, and involves having a highly-developed ear, understanding of style, knowledge of one's physical self and the physical adjustments one can make to alter their sound and also experience of equipment (a lot of guys would swap mouthpieces in order to aid a rapid tone/concept change).
I hope this can add to the discussion.
All the best |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:21 am Post subject: |
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This is Arturo's tribute album to a long list of influential trumpeters. He demonstrates numerous styles intended to be representative of the diverse styles of these various trumpeters. However, the sound is consistently Arturo's sound. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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