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Wick cornet mouthpieces


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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject: Wick cornet mouthpieces Reply with quote

In another thread here, there was an article mentioned about the differences between a cornet and a trumpet:

https://trumpetpla.net/2017/01/22/trumpet-vs-cornet/

There was a point about the trumpet and cornet mouthpieces of Denis Wick:

For Trumpet and Cornet, however, these mouthpieces are some of the worst I’ve played. For the cornet the less popular, deeper, mouthpieces are similar to the original shape of cornet cup, but the throat is far too big and the internal diameter at the top of the cup is also far larger than you would ever find in an old cornet mouthpiece. The larger throat would serve to deaden high overtones in the sound, require more air to play, and make the instrument much less agile overall. It may make the instrument feel more “free blowing”, which is how people often describe the difference between the feel of the trumpet when compared to the cornet. However this is a misnomer. It just saps energy and kills your stamina. The more popular ‘B’ cup just looks like a scaled-down trombone mouthpiece – something most definitely not suited to a cornet. Because of their low price point for many years these mouthpieces have become the standard in the British Brass Band scene. Only in the last ten years or so are other companies now making “true cornet cup” mouthpieces that are more similar to the older designs. Denis Wick has since jumped on the band wagon by bringing out their Heritage Series, which I’ve heard from one of their consultants is just a direct copy of a vintage cornet mouthpiece.

It's not the first time here on this forum with such harsh words concerning the cornet mouthpieces of DW. The writer of this article presumes that the cause of the popularity of the DW mp's in the BBB world lies in the fact that they are cheap. That's too easy for me.
I have to admit that the DW pieces are not the easiest to play but I disagree completely with the tendency of this article. On my Getzen Eterna I play a Heritage 4 for a beautiful soft tone and a standard Wick 4B for a more solistic sound. Though the DW 4B has slightly too much resistance for my taste I have yet to find better mouthpieces to get the cornet sound. And if you are accustomed to the rims they play great.
Am I alone in this? What's the opinion of the diehard BBB players here?
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Wick cornet mouthpieces Reply with quote

delano wrote:
In another thread here, there was an article mentioned about the differences between a cornet and a trumpet:

https://trumpetpla.net/2017/01/22/trumpet-vs-cornet/

There was a point about the trumpet and cornet mouthpieces of Denis Wick:

For Trumpet and Cornet, however, these mouthpieces are some of the worst I’ve played. For the cornet the less popular, deeper, mouthpieces are similar to the original shape of cornet cup, but the throat is far too big and the internal diameter at the top of the cup is also far larger than you would ever find in an old cornet mouthpiece. The larger throat would serve to deaden high overtones in the sound, require more air to play, and make the instrument much less agile overall. It may make the instrument feel more “free blowing”, which is how people often describe the difference between the feel of the trumpet when compared to the cornet. However this is a misnomer. It just saps energy and kills your stamina. The more popular ‘B’ cup just looks like a scaled-down trombone mouthpiece – something most definitely not suited to a cornet. Because of their low price point for many years these mouthpieces have become the standard in the British Brass Band scene. Only in the last ten years or so are other companies now making “true cornet cup” mouthpieces that are more similar to the older designs. Denis Wick has since jumped on the band wagon by bringing out their Heritage Series, which I’ve heard from one of their consultants is just a direct copy of a vintage cornet mouthpiece.

It's not the first time here on this forum with such harsh words concerning the cornet mouthpieces of DW. The writer of this article presumes that the cause of the popularity of the DW mp's in the BBB world lies in the fact that they are cheap. That's too easy for me.
I have to admit that the DW pieces are not the easiest to play but I disagree completely with the tendency of this article. On my Getzen Eterna I play a Heritage 4 for a beautiful soft tone and a standard Wick 4B for a more solistic sound. Though the DW 4B has slightly too much resistance for my taste I have yet to find better mouthpieces to get the cornet sound. And if you are accustomed to the rims they play great.
Am I alone in this? What's the opinion of the diehard BBB players here?


Quite a few pros on the British Orchestral scene play Denis Wick mouthpieces on trumpet and cornet- they seem to think they're alright!

Just a few guys who use/have used Wick mouthpieces on trumpet and cornet:

-Maurice Murphy (Old LSO principal)
-Phil Cobb (LSO principal)
-Gareth Bimson (principal BBC)
-Paul Mayes (check out his youtube stuff)

There are loads more on top pf that.

All the best
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Wick cornet mouthpieces Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
delano wrote:
In another thread here, there was an article mentioned about the differences between a cornet and a trumpet:

https://trumpetpla.net/2017/01/22/trumpet-vs-cornet/

There was a point about the trumpet and cornet mouthpieces of Denis Wick:

For Trumpet and Cornet, however, these mouthpieces are some of the worst I’ve played. For the cornet the less popular, deeper, mouthpieces are similar to the original shape of cornet cup, but the throat is far too big and the internal diameter at the top of the cup is also far larger than you would ever find in an old cornet mouthpiece. The larger throat would serve to deaden high overtones in the sound, require more air to play, and make the instrument much less agile overall. It may make the instrument feel more “free blowing”, which is how people often describe the difference between the feel of the trumpet when compared to the cornet. However this is a misnomer. It just saps energy and kills your stamina. The more popular ‘B’ cup just looks like a scaled-down trombone mouthpiece – something most definitely not suited to a cornet. Because of their low price point for many years these mouthpieces have become the standard in the British Brass Band scene. Only in the last ten years or so are other companies now making “true cornet cup” mouthpieces that are more similar to the older designs. Denis Wick has since jumped on the band wagon by bringing out their Heritage Series, which I’ve heard from one of their consultants is just a direct copy of a vintage cornet mouthpiece.

It's not the first time here on this forum with such harsh words concerning the cornet mouthpieces of DW. The writer of this article presumes that the cause of the popularity of the DW mp's in the BBB world lies in the fact that they are cheap. That's too easy for me.
I have to admit that the DW pieces are not the easiest to play but I disagree completely with the tendency of this article. On my Getzen Eterna I play a Heritage 4 for a beautiful soft tone and a standard Wick 4B for a more solistic sound. Though the DW 4B has slightly too much resistance for my taste I have yet to find better mouthpieces to get the cornet sound. And if you are accustomed to the rims they play great.
Am I alone in this? What's the opinion of the diehard BBB players here?


Quite a few pros on the British Orchestral scene play Denis Wick mouthpieces on trumpet and cornet- they seem to think they're alright!

Just a few guys who use/have used Wick mouthpieces on trumpet and cornet:

-Maurice Murphy (Old LSO principal)
-Phil Cobb (LSO principal)
-Gareth Bimson (principal BBC)
-Paul Mayes (check out his youtube stuff)

There are loads more on top pf that.

All the best


I think this probably cuts to the heart of this...

For the advanced player with good breath control, they're not the stamina sapping nightmare that the quote paints them to be, and lots of GREAT players use them.

However - to tie in (as so often, very appropriate) Jen's famous mouthpieces rant... that doesn't mean everyone should.

The cornet pieces do fall under specialist equipment - they may well not be best suited to developing or fairly average players just because they work great for big names and championship section players (atleast the ones that choose to use them).

And (to be candid) although the job of a 4th section solo cornet player is fundamentally the same as that of a championship solo cornet player, these players capabilities and requirements (tonal flexibility, dynamic range, etc) are very different indeed...
Even if the, with respect, lesser players don't always realise it.


To sum - it's more about matching equipment to the player and their capabilities and requirements than anything - slagging off specialist equipment that doesn't suit you (and/or your needs) seems very short sighted to me

But what do I know, I'm mostly a sop player... (Who uses a Wick 5 on Bb, including at the Grand Shield contest this year)
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been playing much cornet lately, mostly horn and concentrating on that. But in looking for music for my brass ensemble, I came across some that use soprano cornet for the top voice. Pretty cool. I pull out the old sop to have a go. Not in shape but not too far gone. But the mouthpiece that I used before (Curry DC) wobbles a bit. I never noticed that before. Go to drawer, pull out Wick S. It fits and sounds great.

Part two. Pull out the York Eminence Bb cornet and the Yamaha E that I thought was great isn't. Wick 3B. Perfect.

Why? Not a clue unless all the conditioning of the horn and it's larger diameter mouthpiece (17.5mm) and funnel cup shape has made the Wicks better?
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed!

I think these videos might help balance the debate!

https://youtu.be/PgGyqddyFK0

https://youtu.be/53j_31P2aRI

https://youtu.be/1x_hjZyDjrA (only on trumpet, Warburton on cornet)

https://youtu.be/EMYKvYc5aaw

Thanks
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: Wick cornet mouthpieces Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:


I think this probably cuts to the heart of this...

For the advanced player with good breath control, they're not the stamina sapping nightmare that the quote paints them to be, and lots of GREAT players use them.

However - to tie in (as so often, very appropriate) Jen's famous mouthpieces rant... that doesn't mean everyone should.

The cornet pieces do fall under specialist equipment - they may well not be best suited to developing or fairly average players just because they work great for big names and championship section players (atleast the ones that choose to use them).

And (to be candid) although the job of a 4th section solo cornet player is fundamentally the same as that of a championship solo cornet player, these players capabilities and requirements (tonal flexibility, dynamic range, etc) are very different indeed...
Even if the, with respect, lesser players don't always realise it.


To sum - it's more about matching equipment to the player and their capabilities and requirements than anything - slagging off specialist equipment that doesn't suit you (and/or your needs) seems very short sighted to me

But what do I know, I'm mostly a sop player... (Who uses a Wick 5 on Bb, including at the Grand Shield contest this year)


If I read Jens Lindemann I only see comment on extreme big or small trumpet mouthpieces, so?
IMO a Wick B cornet mouthpiece is not an extreme mouthpiece, on the contrary, my 4B is a quite normal mouthpiece for cornet, not big, not small, not too deep and with a quite normal rim (maybe if you are accustomed to Warburton rims like me). The Wick no letter may be more specialized cause of the depth but is still not THAT extreme. OK, the DW's have quite a big throat but I suppose not without a reason. A lot of people here sing the praise of the Oakes (Extreme) flügel mouthpieces and they play so easy they say! Those pieces have a big throat! Never heard anybody about specialist equipment in this context.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: Wick cornet mouthpieces Reply with quote

delano wrote:
TKSop wrote:


I think this probably cuts to the heart of this...

For the advanced player with good breath control, they're not the stamina sapping nightmare that the quote paints them to be, and lots of GREAT players use them.

However - to tie in (as so often, very appropriate) Jen's famous mouthpieces rant... that doesn't mean everyone should.

The cornet pieces do fall under specialist equipment - they may well not be best suited to developing or fairly average players just because they work great for big names and championship section players (atleast the ones that choose to use them).

And (to be candid) although the job of a 4th section solo cornet player is fundamentally the same as that of a championship solo cornet player, these players capabilities and requirements (tonal flexibility, dynamic range, etc) are very different indeed...
Even if the, with respect, lesser players don't always realise it.


To sum - it's more about matching equipment to the player and their capabilities and requirements than anything - slagging off specialist equipment that doesn't suit you (and/or your needs) seems very short sighted to me

But what do I know, I'm mostly a sop player... (Who uses a Wick 5 on Bb, including at the Grand Shield contest this year)


If I read Jens Lindemann I only see comment on extreme big or small trumpet mouthpieces, so?
IMO a Wick B cornet mouthpiece is not an extreme mouthpiece, on the contrary, my 4B is a quite normal mouthpiece for cornet, not big, not small, not too deep and with a quite normal rim (maybe if you are accustomed to Warburton rims like me). The Wick no letter may be more specialized cause of the depth but is still not THAT extreme. OK, the DW's have quite a big throat but I suppose not without a reason. A lot of people here sing the praise of the Oakes (Extreme) flügel mouthpieces and they play so easy they say! Those pieces have a big throat! Never heard anybody about specialist equipment in this context.


I read it as a warning to avoid extremities in general unless necessary. It's written in the context of trumpet gear but IMHO perfectly in the spirit of it to apply the same thinking to any brass playing equipment.

Wick's cornet mouthpieces are, to myind, very much specialist equipment for a specialist application - if ALL you do is brass band playing, and you're developed enough to handle them, that might make sense... But for many it may not.

There's something I've never quite liked about the Wick B cup models, I can't put my finger on it exactly but the no letters just straight up perform better for me, without any of the expected drawbacks.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Wick cornet mouthpieces Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
delano wrote:
TKSop wrote:


I think this probably cuts to the heart of this...

For the advanced player with good breath control, they're not the stamina sapping nightmare that the quote paints them to be, and lots of GREAT players use them.

However - to tie in (as so often, very appropriate) Jen's famous mouthpieces rant... that doesn't mean everyone should.

The cornet pieces do fall under specialist equipment - they may well not be best suited to developing or fairly average players just because they work great for big names and championship section players (atleast the ones that choose to use them).

And (to be candid) although the job of a 4th section solo cornet player is fundamentally the same as that of a championship solo cornet player, these players capabilities and requirements (tonal flexibility, dynamic range, etc) are very different indeed...
Even if the, with respect, lesser players don't always realise it.


To sum - it's more about matching equipment to the player and their capabilities and requirements than anything - slagging off specialist equipment that doesn't suit you (and/or your needs) seems very short sighted to me

But what do I know, I'm mostly a sop player... (Who uses a Wick 5 on Bb, including at the Grand Shield contest this year)


If I read Jens Lindemann I only see comment on extreme big or small trumpet mouthpieces, so?
IMO a Wick B cornet mouthpiece is not an extreme mouthpiece, on the contrary, my 4B is a quite normal mouthpiece for cornet, not big, not small, not too deep and with a quite normal rim (maybe if you are accustomed to Warburton rims like me). The Wick no letter may be more specialized cause of the depth but is still not THAT extreme. OK, the DW's have quite a big throat but I suppose not without a reason. A lot of people here sing the praise of the Oakes (Extreme) flügel mouthpieces and they play so easy they say! Those pieces have a big throat! Never heard anybody about specialist equipment in this context.


I read it as a warning to avoid extremities in general unless necessary. It's written in the context of trumpet gear but IMHO perfectly in the spirit of it to apply the same thinking to any brass playing equipment.

Wick's cornet mouthpieces are, to myind, very much specialist equipment for a specialist application - if ALL you do is brass band playing, and you're developed enough to handle them, that might make sense... But for many it may not.

There's something I've never quite liked about the Wick B cup models, I can't put my finger on it exactly but the no letters just straight up perform better for me, without any of the expected drawbacks.


Having played the soprano part for many years, with good results ( so I was told) - on a BacH 1 1/2 I´ve witnessed the shift to Wick mpc:s; I´ve struggled, practiced,2 years to be exact, but for the life of me I have never been able to use the classic Wick series. I get a very decent sound in one oh yes, for quite some time, but not matter how I´v e practiced my high register and final endurance (think the Dam Busters) I didn´t make it. Today I use an Ultra which suits me very good, very good stamina, though I have to look out for sometimes being too edgy. But this also might have to do with me playing lead trumpet in two big bands.
In general I think these classic Wicks are just fine, used by the top notch players, but amateurs should think twice - as written above - fitting horn player mouthpiece. These classic Wicks have a very large bore, sucking eons of air, deep they are yes, and for me hopeless rim. Rim on the Heritage series better for me but the large bore ....
British Brass Bands have a special sound profile - certainly it has changed since the 50:ties becoming darker (as versus brighter) - so if everyone in the UK plays a Wick classic...who am I to challenge that?
I tend to agree with the quote in the OP. Can´t help it. I just didn´t make it.
However I started out playing a Salvation Army nr 1 60 years ago. V-cup, flat rim and small...my lips were liberated when I switched to a Bach 1 1/4. Today a blasphemy. Tastes come and go.
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason the Wick mouthpieces were popular was that they were the mouthpieces supplied with Boosey and Hawkes instruments.
They were in the case when you got an instrument so people played on them.

I think trumpet players do find them tough going. The rims can be a bit unforgiving. If you give them a light touch they produce a good sound.

The original article is wrong about the Heritage mouthpieces. They are the same weight, rim and cup etc as the standard classic wick mouthpieces. Its the outer shape that is the only difference. It makes them a bit more agile and a bit brighter sounding.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I have no idea were my DW 4 standard has gone but I own a DW standard 4B and a Heritage 4. So you (Gordon) are right that the standard and Heritage share some of the same specs (throat, cup, backbore) the weight is, I believe, different, my Heritage is 45 gram, the standard 4B is 67, OK it is a B.
And the rim is completely different, I reall think the rim of the Heritage is a copy of some 1870 cooky cutter.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Hmm, I have no idea were my DW 4 standard has gone but I own a DW standard 4B and a Heritage 4. So you (Gordon) are right that the standard and Heritage share some of the same specs (throat, cup, backbore) the weight is, I believe, different, my Heritage is 45 gram, the standard 4B is 67, OK it is a B.
And the rim is completely different, I reall think the rim of the Heritage is a copy of some 1870 cooky cutter.


The blank is the same for no-letter and B cups - with more material removed to cut the no-letter cup you'd expect them to be a smidge lighter

The rim can feel very different to some, but the actual profile is the same except for the amount of material on the outer radius... Same thing is true with Warburton's anchor grip line IIRC
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Having played the soprano part for many years, with good results ( so I was told) - on a BacH 1 1/2 I´ve witnessed the shift to Wick mpc:s; I´ve struggled, practiced,2 years to be exact, but for the life of me I have never been able to use the classic Wick series. I get a very decent sound in one oh yes, for quite some time, but not matter how I´v e practiced my high register and final endurance (think the Dam Busters) I didn´t make it.


I've recounted this story before. Back when I was starting to play again, my goal was to play in a BBB. I purchased a York Eminence and started on the Wick 4 as it sounded the best to me. Playing Arbans and spending much time on the songs at the end of the book, I noticed that the Wick 4 gave me a much more secure ability to manage the fast passages. Also, my range and endurance developed rapidly using that mouthpiece. I believe it to be because it does not allow bad habits to be used. Alas the BBB was not to be and I moved on to other types of music. I think we pick up a mouthpiece and want immediate positive effects and range. I think sound comes first and the rest just naturally develop.
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any variation in the rim and cups between Heritage and Classic must relate to older classic mouthpieces. The current ones are identical. The weight is also identical. I have a 2 Heritage and a 2 Classic. Both of similar age and they weigh the same and have identical rims and cups.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That cut on the back of the Heritage rims leads people to think the playing part of the rim is different from the Classic rim. It looks like the old "cookie cutter" rim because it's so thin. I had a Heritage 4B and a Classic 4B at the same time and other than looks, I found little difference between the two.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I checked it and you are right here, the rims are the same though they feel different. The weird thing is that the Heritage 4 plays very easy for me, sound, attacks, responsiviness, range. The 4B is much more difficult, especially the repons is difficult. The Heritage 4 sounds soft like a soft-focus picture, the 4B is much harsher with sometimes a haunting sound. But my problem with the playability could be a temporary thing, I had the same experience with a Yamaha 14F flügelpiece that was at first unplayable for me but now it's one of my favorites.
And I love the ominous sound of the 4B, It has an edge to the sound. In fact the sound of the Heritage 4 is TOO beautiful, TOO nice, TOO pleasing. But this is of course a pure solistic view and is not valid for the BBB sound.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're comparing a 4B Classic to a 4 Heritage, though. If you compare your 4B Classic to a 4 Classic, I'll bet you have the same general impression of the 4 Classic that you had of the 4 Heritage. Likewise, if you compare a 4B classic to a 4B Heritage, they will play the same or very close to it.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Dale, my post was meant as an answer/comment on this:

TKSop wrote:

There's something I've never quite liked about the Wick B cup models, I can't put my finger on it exactly but the no letters just straight up perform better for me, without any of the expected drawbacks.
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I tried to say is that from my strictly personal point of view the sound of the classic 4B is much more interesting than the sound of the Heritage 4 though the playability of the latter is much better than that of the former.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
The only thing I tried to say is that from my strictly personal point of view the sound of the classic 4B is much more interesting than the sound of the Heritage 4 though the playability of the latter is much better than that of the former.


I could add this, from a very personal point of view: in the front row of our brass band 3 guys plays classic wicks, one (me) Wick Ultra and one a Heritage. The Heritage guy, a very talented young man has a superb sound with a round, deep, singing quality and - a clarity of sound not displayed by the classical Wicks which in my humble opinion sound more muddled!
Of course this could be the man not the mouthpiece - but I sincerely doubt that.
But but, we all have personal opinions
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
delano wrote:
The only thing I tried to say is that from my strictly personal point of view the sound of the classic 4B is much more interesting than the sound of the Heritage 4 though the playability of the latter is much better than that of the former.


I could add this, from a very personal point of view: in the front row of our brass band 3 guys plays classic wicks, one (me) Wick Ultra and one a Heritage. The Heritage guy, a very talented young man has a superb sound with a round, deep, singing quality and - a clarity of sound not displayed by the classical Wicks which in my humble opinion sound more muddled!
Of course this could be the man not the mouthpiece - but I sincerely doubt that.
But but, we all have personal opinions


In the most respectful way possible; this is almost certainly about the man and not the mouthpiece.

What is more, if you think the mouthpiece is having an effect, you need to make sure you are comparing like with like. Denis Wick makes a whole range of cornet mouthpieces with varied inner dimensions.

A 4B has a different tonal character to a 4, as does a 3, 3B or any other. IF the mouthpiece was having an effect it is far more likely its to do with the different inner dimensions rather than whether it is a classic or heritage shape. Unless you know for sure all players are on identical sizes, you can't even start beginning to think about the outer shape of the mouthpieces!

All the best
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