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I can buzz, now what?


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punctualpete
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:08 pm    Post subject: I can buzz, now what? Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

First, I want to say that I've taken a few lessons with Chris Labarbera over the last couple years, and he has helped me out a lot, just over 2 in-person lessons and 1 skype lesson. He has always been very generous with his time, and he really wants to make sure you get what you need before he ends the lesson.

A lot of what Chris had me do was basic buzzing routines:
- buzz a note, hold it, rest a second, buzz a half step higher, repeat x 3
- buzz a middle C 3 times, then play a middle C. Repeat for C# and D
- walk-ins

We did some other stuff too, but my question is this:
What do you do/practice after you are comfortable buzzing, to take advantage of the strength that buzzing builds?

I can buzz up to A below high C, I can buzz scales and arpeggios between middle C and G on top of the staff, and I'm comfortable walking into notes up to G on top of the staff. I'm just not sure what to do to translate all that into better trumpet playing. More buzzing? Different buzzing? Other exercises?

Any suggestions are appreciated. If it helps, Chris said I look like a IIIB, and my comfortable range right now ends at high C# or D. I have Rich Willey's book (Reinhardt Routines), but I haven't used it much apart from WU 57.

Chris if you read this it's Peter, the cruise ship guy.
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punctualpete
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe my original post was confusing, so I will try to clarify.

Once you are comfortable with basic buzzing routines, what's the next step?

Should I revisit things like Clarke, Irons, etc?
Should I go for more advanced buzzing goals (higher, longer, etc)?
Are there other exercises I should try?
All of the above? None of the above?


I am fairly new to the Reinhardt approach to trumpet, so I am looking for guidance from all the people here who know more about it than I do.

I know the original post mentions Chris, but it wasn't intended to be just for him. I know there are lots of knowledgeable Reinhardt students on the forum, so the more the merrier.

Thanks everyone!
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

punctualpete wrote:
Maybe my original post was confusing, so I will try to clarify.

Once you are comfortable with basic buzzing routines, what's the next step?

Should I revisit things like Clarke, Irons, etc?
Should I go for more advanced buzzing goals (higher, longer, etc)?
Are there other exercises I should try?
All of the above? None of the above?


I am fairly new to the Reinhardt approach to trumpet, so I am looking for guidance from all the people here who know more about it than I do.

I know the original post mentions Chris, but it wasn't intended to be just for him. I know there are lots of knowledgeable Reinhardt students on the forum, so the more the merrier.

Thanks everyone!


Hi,

Glad to hear you are having some success.

Everyone has a different approach to playing; buzzing is a concept that really divides opinion. Some players (Malcolm Mcnab, James Stamp, Hakan Hardenberger) swear by it, others do a very occasional amount and then some insist it is a waste of time entirely (perhaps they wouldn't word it so strongly but Wayne Bergeron and Allen Vizzutti spring to mind).

Personally I sit in the latter camp. The resistance of the trumpet, and formation of the standing wave, is an essential part of our playing system. Buzzing the mouthpiece does not offer this and encourages a tighter (more forced) approach. It is also proven that producing a note on the mouthpiece is not the same as a note on the trumpet, for the reason I outlined above, and the classic example is to play a note on the trumpet and remove the mouthpiece from the lead pipe as you do so, if you don't change anything you will see that only air can be heard through the mouthpiece, not a buzz.

However, a lot of truly great players regard mouthpiece buzzing as an important tool for aural development, control of pitch centre, efficient breathing and response control, which I can fully understand.

My advice is to choose what works for you (it appears that you are happy with the progress buzzing has brought to your playing) and make use of it, but do not forget the key principle that we are playing the trumpet and the final goal is fantastic control, sound and style. Don't get too caught up in pursuits of non-musical goals. This misdirection can occur with any development techniques; we see it with pedal notes, lip bends, lead pipe or mouthpiece buzzing, where players become too focused on trying to be better at the individual skill/trick rather than using them as tools to hone our proper playing. To use another example; lip bending can be very useful, but being obsessed about trying to lip notes down a major 3rd and spending copious time chasing that goal is definitely not going to have any benefit on your playing whatsoever, it would signify 'missing the point' of the exercise.

If I were you, your focus should be on playing the trumpet beautifully. By all means, use some mouthpiece buzzing to improve certain aspects (along with other building-techniques), but don't get caught up in trying to 'conquer' the mouthpiece; no one will ask you to perform on your mouthpiece and there are a lot of people, myself included, who do not use mouthpiece buzzing and have next to no ability to control the mouthpiece at all and yet (in the nicest possible way) would probably play you off the bandstand.

Remember that playing the trumpet is not about strength, but about balance, so try not to think of buzzing as a strength builder, it certainly doesn't do that.

In terms of your question 'What do you do/practice after you are comfortable buzzing...', I would say that the standard points of playing (on the actual instrument) are the way to go. Work on your articulation, dynamic control, range, flexibility, sound and finger dexterity, as any player should.

Hope that is helpful and adds to the discussion.

All the best
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PP, why don't you just ask Chris? Maybe he will see your post and reply.

LSO, when you mention buzzing in the Reinhardt forum, it refers only to free buzzing, since Reinhardt didn't include mouthpiece buzzing in his teachings( correct me if I am mistaken).
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
However, a lot of truly great players regard mouthpiece buzzing as an important tool for aural development, control of pitch centre, efficient breathing and response control, which I can fully understand.

My advice is to choose what works for you (it appears that you are happy with the progress buzzing has brought to your playing) and make use of it . . . .

In the Reinhardt Forum, the term buzzing means just the lips, no mouthpiece, no horn, nothing else.

While I'm sure your post was well-meaning, it has nothing to do with what Doc Reinhardt taught.

Doc had a four-step buzzing procedure that is downstairs in my Reinhardt notebook of handouts he gave me. I went through those four steps over a period of many weeks and had great success at the time. Maybe this thread appeared as a wake-up call for me to dig that sheet out and go through those four steps again?



Also, the purpose of the Reinhardt Forum is not to give advice, but to find out about the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.

Thanks!
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,

So sorry, didn't realise this was in the Reinhardt forum, I know very little about any of Reinhardt's teachings.

I am a little confused though, is the OP suggesting he buzzes 'scales and arpeggios' with just his lips? That sounds both difficult and completely unnecessary in improving trumpet playing.

All that being said, the points I made in my first post still stand- in fact, even more so if the OP is indeed describing lip buzzing, which is yet another step further away from the actual mechanics of playing the instrument.

Let me know.

All the best
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punctualpete
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies everyone. I could message Chris, but I bug him so much I thought I'd give him a break

Thanks for clarifying the purpose of this forum Rich, I get it now.

With that in mind, did Reinhardt have a specific set of exercises that he assigned to compliment the buzzing routines?
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

punctualpete wrote:
Thanks for the replies everyone. I could message Chris, but I bug him so much I thought I'd give him a break

Thanks for clarifying the purpose of this forum Rich, I get it now.

With that in mind, did Reinhardt have a specific set of exercises that he assigned to compliment the buzzing routines?

Buzzing and walking into all of the tuning note C's in Warm-Up #57 is what he had me do as the first of the four buzzing procedures. The first G's I ever played in my life were as a result of doing that.

I'm headed back downstairs and will try to remember to get out my DSR notebook.

And, LSO boy, rather than criticizing and making pronouncements about something you admit you know nothing about (DSR's teaching), maybe you could curtail your unsolicited commentary about what our great teacher taught to thousands of successful players for over 55 years? We sure would appreciate that. Thanks!
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich, the buzzing procedure is in the encyclopedia as well. I don't have mine unpacked yet, otherwise I would tell you the page number.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="BeboppinFool"]
punctualpete wrote:

And, LSO boy, rather than criticizing and making pronouncements about something you admit you know nothing about (DSR's teaching), maybe you could curtail your unsolicited commentary about what our great teacher taught to thousands of successful players for over 55 years? We sure would appreciate that. Thanks!


Hi Rich,

I would have hoped for a slightly more open approach from the moderator of this forum, nevertheless I shall persevere...

My post actually contained a question which you failed to answer; is the OP saying that they free buzz (without mouthpiece, lead pipe or trumpet) 'scales and arpeggios' and are genuinely attempting to buzz controlled pitches with their lips alone? If so, would you care to explain why someone would believe that had any benefit on the mechanics of playing the trumpet?

You are fiercely defensive against my open curiosity, and I would have thought, if you truly admired Doc's teaching and pedagogy, you would want to discuss and explain his methods, rather than aggressively rebutting anyone who questions them?

Hopefully we'll get a better reply second time around.

Thanks
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
My post actually contained a question which you failed to answer; is the OP saying that they free buzz (without mouthpiece, lead pipe or trumpet) 'scales and arpeggios' and are genuinely attempting to buzz controlled pitches with their lips alone? If so, would you care to explain why someone would believe that had any benefit on the mechanics of playing the trumpet?

When we follow Doc's guidelines about buzzing, i.e. never tongue a buzz, buzz no lower than a trumpet second line G, buzz at a medium volume level (not too loud or too soft), never buzz on fatigued lips, etc., we get enormous benefit by doing it. We know this because we have done this. If you have not done it, you have no way of knowing the benefits of it. I noticed huge benefits in a matter of days back in June 1978 and have buzzed my lips daily ever since.

I’m reminded of the famous quotation which is widely attributed to Herbert Spencer:

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance — that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
LSOfanboy wrote:
My post actually contained a question which you failed to answer; is the OP saying that they free buzz (without mouthpiece, lead pipe or trumpet) 'scales and arpeggios' and are genuinely attempting to buzz controlled pitches with their lips alone? If so, would you care to explain why someone would believe that had any benefit on the mechanics of playing the trumpet?

When we follow Doc's guidelines about buzzing, i.e. never tongue a buzz, buzz no lower than a trumpet second line G, buzz at a medium volume level (not too loud or too soft), never buzz on fatigued lips, etc., we get enormous benefit by doing it. We know this because we have done this. If you have not done it, you have no way of knowing the benefits of it. I noticed huge benefits in a matter of days back in June 1978 and have buzzed my lips daily ever since.

I’m reminded of the famous quotation which is widely attributed to Herbert Spencer:

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance — that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”


Hi Rich,

Thanks for your reply.

You half answered my question; I was also curious as to what the perceived benefits are exactly?

Your music is good, your swing is great and the language is neat. I enjoyed listening to it. You should, however, be a little careful when suggesting other players are ignorant, especially when you don't know who you are talking to.

At the start of this discussion I was the first to admit I have very little experience of Doc Reinhardt's teachings (actually there are very few professionals in Europe who do...) but that is not to say that I don't have a great deal of experience with other pedagogy, as well as a solid understanding of the physical process and an association with a great many fantastic players and teachers. It is also a vast stretch to assume that I have never tried buzzing my lips without a mouthpiece, I have, and have formed an opinion on it. I would bet that a very large majority of the professional players I know would share that opinion.

It is a true shame that these forums are dominated by individuals like yourself, so quick to confront and insult, and so defensive of their beliefs. These forums should be a place of respect and knowledge, for sharing experience and anecdotes, not simply a toxic hub of arguments and offence.

You are more than welcome to give me an overview of Reinhardt's teachings, concepts and terminology, I would be very interested to learn more about him. Do, however, keep your demeaning and condescending attitude to yourself.

Thanks
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
BeboppinFool wrote:
LSOfanboy wrote:
My post actually contained a question which you failed to answer; is the OP saying that they free buzz (without mouthpiece, lead pipe or trumpet) 'scales and arpeggios' and are genuinely attempting to buzz controlled pitches with their lips alone? If so, would you care to explain why someone would believe that had any benefit on the mechanics of playing the trumpet?

When we follow Doc's guidelines about buzzing, i.e. never tongue a buzz, buzz no lower than a trumpet second line G, buzz at a medium volume level (not too loud or too soft), never buzz on fatigued lips, etc., we get enormous benefit by doing it. We know this because we have done this. If you have not done it, you have no way of knowing the benefits of it. I noticed huge benefits in a matter of days back in June 1978 and have buzzed my lips daily ever since.

I’m reminded of the famous quotation which is widely attributed to Herbert Spencer:

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance — that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”


Hi Rich,

Thanks for your reply.

You half answered my question; I was also curious as to what the perceived benefits are exactly?

Your music is good, your swing is great and the language is neat. I enjoyed listening to it. You should, however, be a little careful when suggesting other players are ignorant, especially when you don't know who you are talking to.

At the start of this discussion I was the first to admit I have very little experience of Doc Reinhardt's teachings (actually there are very few professionals in Europe who do...) but that is not to say that I don't have a great deal of experience with other pedagogy, as well as a solid understanding of the physical process and an association with a great many fantastic players and teachers. It is also a vast stretch to assume that I have never tried buzzing my lips without a mouthpiece, I have, and have formed an opinion on it. I would bet that a very large majority of the professional players I know would share that opinion.

It is a true shame that these forums are dominated by individuals like yourself, so quick to confront and insult, and so defensive of their beliefs. These forums should be a place of respect and knowledge, for sharing experience and anecdotes, not simply a toxic hub of arguments and offence.

You are more than welcome to give me an overview of Reinhardt's teachings, concepts and terminology, I would be very interested to learn more about him. Do, however, keep your demeaning and condescending attitude to yourself.

Thanks


This board is a little bit of an anomaly, in that posts are judged on their accuracy to Reinhardt teachings - unless relevant, other schools of thought and posters contradicting Reinhardt's teachings are seen as distractions, regardless of whether they're well intentioned or not and regardless of how much experience or confidence they have in their views.

You may be right, you may not... But what you're saying simply doesn't jive with Reinhardt, so it doesn't fit here.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich, a couple of questions. I decided to go through the four buzzing categories of the PS, since I have trying to work out some playing issues. In the buzzing category 2, it states"...after playing a phrase according to buzzing category 1, remove the mouthpiece from the embouchure for a few seconds...". Does this mean to play one phrase from Concone, then remove the mouthpiece again, play another phrase, removing the mouthpiece after each phrase that you play?

Also, about walking into the tuning C on warmup 57, did DSR tell you to walk in to the tuning C on the repeat as well, or just on the first C?

Thanks!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
So sorry, didn't realise this was in the Reinhardt forum, I know very little about any of Reinhardt's teachings.

At first you stated you knew very little about Reinhardt's teachings, then you went on to demonstrate that you actually know nothing about Reinhardt's teachings.

As a moderator of the forum of an unfortunately (and unnecessarily) controversial teacher, yes I will defend Doc Reinhardt every time.

When somebody comes here and posts things way out of line with Doc's teaching, I will be quick to try to point out that this forum is to "Find out about the teachings of Donald S. Reinhardt" which is precisely what I did.

If you want to read something else into that, that is not my problem, and the dedicated and devoted Reinhardt students and advocates will not mind if you no longer post here.

If you're not going to try doing something but will criticize and pick at it all day, we have no use for you.

To find out the benefits of buzzing (or the pencil trick, etc.), you need to try it for yourself. It's really just that simple.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
Rich, a couple of questions. I decided to go through the four buzzing categories of the PS, since I have trying to work out some playing issues. In the buzzing category 2, it states"...after playing a phrase according to buzzing category 1, remove the mouthpiece from the embouchure for a few seconds...". Does this mean to play one phrase from Concone, then remove the mouthpiece again, play another phrase, removing the mouthpiece after each phrase that you play?

Also, about walking into the tuning C on warmup 57, did DSR tell you to walk in to the tuning C on the repeat as well, or just on the first C?

Thanks!

I still haven't gone and looked up those four buzzing procedures, so I need to do that before answering the first part of your post.

However, on Warm-up #57, buzz into just the first C, and for the repeat do a nose or mouth corner breath without disturbing your placement.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
LSOfanboy wrote:
So sorry, didn't realise this was in the Reinhardt forum, I know very little about any of Reinhardt's teachings.

At first you stated you knew very little about Reinhardt's teachings, then you went on to demonstrate that you actually know nothing about Reinhardt's teachings.

As a moderator of the forum of an unfortunately (and unnecessarily) controversial teacher, yes I will defend Doc Reinhardt every time.

When somebody comes here and posts things way out of line with Doc's teaching, I will be quick to try to point out that this forum is to "Find out about the teachings of Donald S. Reinhardt" which is precisely what I did.

If you want to read something else into that, that is not my problem, and the dedicated and devoted Reinhardt students and advocates will not mind if you no longer post here.

If you're not going to try doing something but will criticize and pick at it all day, we have no use for you.

To find out the benefits of buzzing (or the pencil trick, etc.), you need to try it for yourself. It's really just that simple.


Hi Rich,

I think in your haste to be aggressive and confrontational you failed to read my post.

Get back to me when you do.

All the best
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punctualpete
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSO, if you want to go straight to the source, here is a link to the site where I bought Reinhardt's Encyclopedia.

https://qpress.ca/product/reinhardts-encyclopedia-of-the-pivot-system-for-trumpet-pdf/

The discussion on buzzing starts on p. 167, and the buzzing routines start on p. 169. I am going by the page numbers in the encyclopedia; the page numbers of the PDF document don't line up exactly with the page numbers of the encyclopedia.

If you don't want to pay $35 here is a sticky note outlining Reinhardt's 35 basic points of the pivot system. This one makes more sense if you also have the Encyclopedia, or if you have taken a lesson or two with someone who studied with Reinhardt.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109172

I can only speak for myself, but when I started buzzing I noticed quick improvements in endurance, power/resonance, and I gained a little bit of range.

Rich, I'll try walking into the C's in WU 57, thanks for that tip.
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drboogenbroom
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once I really was able to walk into the horn correctly I got a lot of benefit from walking into the beginning of a bunch of different kinds of exercises, WU #57, Concone phrases, stuff in Rich's books etc.

Based on what people here have talked about, and what is in The Encyclopedia, I've always had the impression that rather than trying to do ever more advanced buzzing pyrotechnics (complex scales and arpeggieos or being able to buzz all of the Hayden) once your form and strength had reached a certain level it was more about relating the buzzing formation to the horn in more and more direct ways. I'm sure there are exceptions, but, speaking generally, is that pretty accurate?

Kevin
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

punctualpete wrote:
LSO, if you want to go straight to the source, here is a link to the site where I bought Reinhardt's Encyclopedia.

https://qpress.ca/product/reinhardts-encyclopedia-of-the-pivot-system-for-trumpet-pdf/

The discussion on buzzing starts on p. 167, and the buzzing routines start on p. 169. I am going by the page numbers in the encyclopedia; the page numbers of the PDF document don't line up exactly with the page numbers of the encyclopedia.

If you don't want to pay $35 here is a sticky note outlining Reinhardt's 35 basic points of the pivot system. This one makes more sense if you also have the Encyclopedia, or if you have taken a lesson or two with someone who studied with Reinhardt.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109172

I can only speak for myself, but when I started buzzing I noticed quick improvements in endurance, power/resonance, and I gained a little bit of range.

Rich, I'll try walking into the C's in WU 57, thanks for that tip.


Thanks so much.

That is by far the most helpful information I have received on this, rather hostile, forum.

I shall check it out.

All the best
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