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what exactly is equal temperament and how it relates


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mm55
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
... never intended to be condescending or cause offence ... incorrect and confrontational post you started with ... well, the second one was ...


And thank you again for the continuing condescension.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
JoseLindE4 wrote:
Equal temperament is the agreement that ALL notes will be equally out of tune.
That's nonsense. Equal temperament is the agreement that all semitones will be the same size. That's the most common modern definition of "in tune".


My opening comment is an admittedly sarcastic way of describing the issues of tuning. Discussions of historical tuning systems can become difficult since our ears and minds are so wrapped up in the present day. Everything ends up being referenced back to the modern piano or you end up charts full of square roots and long decimals. Either way ends up confusing the issue. I think the recognition that our default isn't the historical default can be ear opening. I know that it was for me.

We're in agreement that "in tune" is entirely context dependent and has a lot to do with conventions. While we're mostly living in an equal tempered world, I think if you pay attention to good orchestras, they'll be playing something that isn't purely equal temperament, even on modern pieces. It will be some unspoken negotiation between equal temperament, constantly shifting justly tuned intervals to make the chords and intervals ring best, whatever it is that string players sometimes do, that guy who should have retired a few years ago, and grace towards the oboe player's bad reed. As to the broader point, I agree that there's a symbiotic relationship between a tuning system and a culture's music.

As to the question of practical application, I think it can open our ears to new and old sounds. It can make sense of things that previously didn't make musical sense and shed new light on things we previously took for granted.
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Denny Schreffler
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Joined: 14 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: what exactly is equal temperament and how it relates Reply with quote

KRELL1960 wrote:
What is equal temperament and how it relates to using a tuner with a trumpet.

tom


Equal temperament is the attitude exhibited by most of the viola section but especially the last couple of stands.

Viola players are phlegmatic but that’s bad only in cold/flu and allergy seasons.

It does not relate at all to using a tuner with a trumpet – viola players have their instruments tuned once a year when they take their gear into the shop to have the bow resined.


-Denny
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
mm55 wrote:
JoseLindE4 wrote:
Equal temperament is the agreement that ALL notes will be equally out of tune.
That's nonsense. Equal temperament is the agreement that all semitones will be the same size. That's the most common modern definition of "in tune".


My opening comment is an admittedly sarcastic way of describing the issues of tuning. Discussions of historical tuning systems can become difficult since our ears and minds are so wrapped up in the present day. Everything ends up being referenced back to the modern piano or you end up charts full of square roots and long decimals. Either way ends up confusing the issue. I think the recognition that our default isn't the historical default can be ear opening. I know that it was for me.

We're in agreement that "in tune" is entirely context dependent and has a lot to do with conventions. While we're mostly living in an equal tempered world, I think if you pay attention to good orchestras, they'll be playing something that isn't purely equal temperament, even on modern pieces. It will be some unspoken negotiation between equal temperament, constantly shifting justly tuned intervals to make the chords and intervals ring best, whatever it is that string players sometimes do, that guy who should have retired a few years ago, and grace towards the oboe player's bad reed. As to the broader point, I agree that there's a symbiotic relationship between a tuning system and a culture's music.

As to the question of practical application, I think it can open our ears to new and old sounds. It can make sense of things that previously didn't make musical sense and shed new light on things we previously took for granted.



I think your´e right on the spot writing: As to the broader point, I agree that there's a symbiotic relationship between a tuning system and a culture's music.
In fact I think the "melody of language" could be looked upon in the same way. Even from a personal standpoint - I´ve witnessed people suddenly switch to their childhood language accents telling emotionally laden stories, if only for some seconds - their "normal" (=default) language accents reflecting their contemporary location.
Fascinating topic! We all get "indoctrinated" by the melodies we pick up from early on; these melodies also get emotional significations.
And of course, writing "accents" - all these different ways to play music - big band music from the swing era, modern big band music, classical music, the way to play british brass band music, the cornet versus the trumpet, you name it. But now I left the track. !
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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deleted_user_680e93b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: what exactly is equal temperament and how it relates Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
KRELL1960 wrote:
What is equal temperament and how it relates to using a tuner with a trumpet.

tom


Equal temperament is the attitude exhibited by most of the viola section but especially the last couple of stands.

Viola players are phlegmatic but that’s bad only in cold/flu and allergy seasons.

It does not relate at all to using a tuner with a trumpet – viola players have their instruments tuned once a year when they take their gear into the shop to have the bow resined.


-Denny


funny !
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