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What gap set up did Claude use/recommend?


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BPL
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:53 pm    Post subject: What gap set up did Claude use/recommend? Reply with quote

I need to revisit my set up, and need a bit of help.

I play a CGP on a CG Selmer (model 0648). Right now, the gap is close to zero.. if not, then zero. It plays fine, but I fear the upper register might not be responding as it should. Notes slot really well up to about Eb above high C, and it seems to be in tune throughout, but above high F the notes seem kind of slippery. I'm not a high player, but if I'm practising the upper register, I just want to know my set up isn't working against me.

Some specific questions;

1. How did Claude have his gap set up.. does any one know?
2. What bore would he recommend for his students?
3. What was his attitude to this subject? Did he have opinions about it?
4. Where is the best place to purchase a CGP mpc? (I need a 2nd piece pretty badly.)
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Speed
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only address the question about where to purchase a CGP. Kanstul makes them, which you can purchase directly from Kanstul by telephone. Marcinkiewicz also manufactures them. I believe you can get them directly from Marcinkiewicz, but I'm not sure. You can buy a Marcinkiewicz CGP from Mouthpiece Express.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: What gap set up did Claude use/recommend? Reply with quote

BPL wrote:


Some specific questions;

1. How did Claude have his gap set up.. does any one know?
2. What bore would he recommend for his students?
3. What was his attitude to this subject? Did he have opinions about it?
4. Where is the best place to purchase a CGP mpc? (I need a 2nd piece pretty badly.)


1. Not sure, but if you're using a CGP with a CG trumpet, the gap should be close enough to where it should be.
2. Throat bore in the mouthpiece would be a #22 or #21. The CGP should all have one or the other. Some may have a #19.
3. He had very strong opinions. A mouthpiece should be 'aerodynamically correct' which according to Claude's books meant a more 'v' shaped cup than is standard, a large throat bore, and a big, open backbore.
4. There's two CGP models. The Kanstul Model (Jim New can also make this), which is the original CG Personal. The other is the Marcinkiewicz model. The Marcink is has a little more room at the top of the cup which works better for some people. I personally prefer the Marcink. The Marcink comes with two bore sizes #22 and a #21. There's not much difference. Neither is going to substantially help or hinder your playing.

You can buy them new from mouthpiece express I'm pretty sure, or any Marcinkewicz retailer can order you one.

As far as I can tell, Claude was pretty adamant that students not get hung up on equipment, and instead focused on hard work and practice to see improvements.

I have a Kanstul version of the CG design (.470 bore). The instrument is very slippery in its slotting by nature. It's very lightweight and lightly braced which means the slots feel very shallow.

You can stiffen up the slots a few ways:

1. Buy a washer the right size to fit in the bottom cap without obstructing the hole. Put it in the third valve, forget about it, and practice.

2. Buy an adjustable soundpost so you can add a second brace to the tuning slide area. Best position seems to be right in front of the bell brace.

3. Use a different mouthpiece. Your mileage may vary wildly depending on mouthpiece choice. The CG mouthpieces are also lightweight, and that helps balance out the natural brightness of a very lightweight trumpet (as some of the highs radiate away upfront), but lightweight mouthpieces can also make slots slippery. So you can choose a mouthpiece with a heavier blank, but you might find it makes your sound a little brighter or more brittle than you want.
You could try contacting GR mouthpieces, they might be able to help you solve this specific problem.

All that said, personal preferences for slotting in the upper register vary a lot. Some people really want things to slot very firmly, while others like to be able to place things where their ear wants them.

The CGP is a pretty deep mouthpiece, it wouldn't be a mouthpiece many people would choose for loud high register playing. My own CG teacher suggested a Schilke 14B with a #22 throat. I never ended up trying one, but I used the Marcink CGP and the Schilke 14 for a long while before eventually I go the N+1 disease.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both the Benge and the Kanstul versions of Claude's mouthpieces were/are available with the standard Morse or the smaller French tapers.

On the Benge pieces, if there was an S on the mouthpiece it was a Morse (Standard) taper (which fits correctly to Bach and the Selmer CG trumpets as well as most other brands), and if there was no S on the mouthpiece it was the French taper (that fit the taper on Claude's personal French Besson Meha and also fit the taper of at least the early Benge CG trumpets).

In the case of the Kanstul mouthpieces, I don't think they stamp anything on the mouthpiece describing the taper. I have had CG Personal mouthpieces from Kanstul that were clearly French taper - they bottom out on my horns.

The best way to insure you have the correct taper is to call Kanstul and order directly from them and specify that you want the mouthpiece made with a standard Morse taper.

I also suggest you order and try the Mohan 7MV that Kanstul offers (you can see it on the Comparator and compare it to the CG Personal). It is a slightly shallower version of the CG Personal (identical in all respects, including the Modified-V cup shape - just a tad shallower). It plays nice and open in the lower and middle registers, but also gives a bigger sound with more sizzle in the upper register.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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BPL
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm blown away by the quality of the information provided here.. thank you so much. I'm going to follow all of this up!

John, I'm very interested in your 7MV. I'm generally loathe to start fiddling with mouthpieces, it scares me.. but I've been wondering for a while if my CGP might be a bit big, a bit too deep?

Brett
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BPL wrote:
I'm blown away by the quality of the information provided here.. thank you so much. I'm going to follow all of this up!

John, I'm very interested in your 7MV. I'm generally loathe to start fiddling with mouthpieces, it scares me.. but I've been wondering for a while if my CGP might be a bit big, a bit too deep?

Brett


You're welcome Brett!

I think you'd love the 7MV. I also designed a 7SV but I think it is a little too shallow (though still V-shaped and fairly deep).

Here's a scan comparing the the CG Personal with the 7MV:


https://i.postimg.cc/nrFy3Lr4/CG_Personal_red_vs_Mohan_7_MV_green.jpg
CG Personal (red) vs. Mohan 7MV (green)

Click on the image to open it up full-sized in a separate window.

Note that the scan is a little off (can't seem to overlay the two mouthpieces exactly over each other). Though it looks like the inner cup diameter just off the rim is a tiny bit bigger on mine than on Claude's they are in fact identical when made. Also, mine is supposed to come with the same blank shape as the CG Personal mouthpiece, but you might need to remind the Kanstul folks of that fact given that James New is no longer there. One could order the 7MV with a normal Bach style blank if one wanted to though.

Cheers,

John
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Speed
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting to an couple of month old thread, but I have some info to add.

I bought a Selmer CG (#1961) several months ago, and very shortly thereafter sent it to be refinished, without having played it very much. It's back, and I've now spent a lot of time with it, and the resistance is greater than I prefer. I checked the gap with a Warburton GapChek, and found it to be nearly 1/4 inch. I've checked it with a Marcinkiewicz CG-P, a Kanstul CG-P and various Bach mouthpieces.

I am curious to know what other Selmer CG owners find their gaps to be. The OP had an early serial number, and mine is fairly late, but there appears to be a significant difference between the gap on his CG and mine. It may be interesting to compare the Selmer CG gaps to the Benge CG gaps, as well.


Thanks,
Marc Speed


Last edited by Speed on Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll check my gaps when I get a chance. 1/4" seems like a lot! And CG horns (Selmers and Benges) feel fairly open to most players so it sounds to me like you might have an anomaly on your hands (perhaps that gap is to blame). I find the CG horns to play more open than a Bach 37, less open than a Schilke X3 and about the same as a Schilke B3.
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Speed
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, John.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
Posting to an couple of month old thread, but I have some info to add.

I bought a Selmer CG (#1961) several months ago, and very shortly thereafter sent it to be refinished, without having played it very much. It's back, and I've now spent a lot of time with it, and the resistance is greater than I prefer. I checked the gap with a Warburton GapChek, and found it to be nearly 1/4 inch. I've checked it with a Marcinkiewicz CG-P, a Kanstul CG-P and various Bach mouthpieces.

I am curious to know what other Selmer CG owners find their gaps to be. The OP had an early serial number, and mine is fairly late, but there appears to be a significant difference between the gap on his CG and mine. It may be interesting to compare the Selmer CG gaps to the Benge CG gaps, as well.


Thanks,
Marc Speed


Hey Marc,

Question - If you look down the receiver of your receiver, is there a ledge where the receiver and lead pipe overlap?
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Speed
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. I presume the ledge you are talking about is the end of the leadpipe. In other words, the receiver and the leadpipe are not flush. The receiver fits over the leadpipe, creating the ledge you mentioned.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
Yes. I presume the ledge you are talking about is the end of the leadpipe. In other words, the receiver and the leadpipe are not flush. The receiver fits over the leadpipe, creating the ledge you mentioned.

Take care,
Marc Speed


Hi Marc,

Ah! This might be the culprit. Perhaps John can confirm here for me as I have this from only one source, but the CG horns have or are supposed to have this ledge removed which also opens up the Venturi to something rather large. It also tends to make all mouthpieces plays as though there was no gap regardless of insertion distance.
I don't know when exactly this change entered into the design on the CG horns, or if it was used on both the Selmers and the Benges or just one of them, but this may be where the problem is coming from.

One of my horns has the Kanstul CG Pipe which is made from the old Benge tools for the CG trumpet and the lead pipe and receiver are flush.
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Speed
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's very interesting. I also have a Bach Commercial Trumpet, and it has the same "ledge" as my CG, just not so far down.

I was under the impression that it was pretty standard fare trumpet construction for the receiver to slide over a portion of the leadpipe. It seems that using that technique would necessarily result in a ledge. What am I missing here?

Thanks,
Marc Speed
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Speed wrote:
Yes. I presume the ledge you are talking about is the end of the leadpipe. In other words, the receiver and the leadpipe are not flush. The receiver fits over the leadpipe, creating the ledge you mentioned.

Take care,
Marc Speed


Hi Marc,

Ah! This might be the culprit. Perhaps John can confirm here for me as I have this from only one source, but the CG horns have or are supposed to have this ledge removed which also opens up the Venturi to something rather large. It also tends to make all mouthpieces plays as though there was no gap regardless of insertion distance.
I don't know when exactly this change entered into the design on the CG horns, or if it was used on both the Selmers and the Benges or just one of them, but this may be where the problem is coming from.

One of my horns has the Kanstul CG Pipe which is made from the old Benge tools for the CG trumpet and the lead pipe and receiver are flush.


I'm actually in the midst of testing my pertinent horns (a non-CG Benge, two CG Benges and two CG Selmers) and can tell you that this could be true to some extent. I've only tested my Burbank Benge 6X and the earlier of my two CG Benges so far. The ledge at the beginning of the leadpipe does exist on my earlier CG Benge but it is less pronounced then on my Burbank Benge. This would be in keeping with what you said. And I know that the CG Benge leadpipe is supposed to have a Venturi of .358" (compared to about .345" on a standard Benge 6X). And note also, that the Venturi on this particular CG Benge is not really as big as it should be. It was measured at 0.347" whereas the Venturi on the CG Benge I bought directly through Claude measured at the proper 0.358" (though I am pretty sure that I was able to detect the beginning of the leadpipe even on it).

When I am done testing all the horns with mouthpieces of four different manufacturers I'll post the results here.

As a teaser:

What I've found so far confirms my suspicion that the CG Benge trumpets were built with the narrower and longer French Tapers as opposed to the standard Morse Tapers of the other Benges as well as Schilkes and Bachs. Claude’s French Besson Meha from which the CG Benge leadpipe design was reverse engineered, had a French Taper Receiver. And the Benge CG mouthpieces were built with French Morse tapers and while they fit the CG Benges just fine, they would clank into the leadpipe if fitted into Bach or other trumpets. This is why the Benge CG mouthpiece were also offered with a “Standard” (Morse) Taper and those had an “S” stamped onto them.

So far I have tested my Burbank (non-CG) Benge and the earlier of my two CG Benges with the four different mouthpieces (from Bob Reeves, Bach, Kanstul and Schilke). The distance from the beginning of the mouthpiece receiver to the leadpipe in my non-CG Benge is 3mm shorter, and all the mouthpieces have gaps of 3 to 6 millimeters more when placed in the CG Benge than when placed in the Burbank Benge. This is in keeping with what would happen if Morse taper mouthpieces are inserted into a Morse Taper horn versus a French Taper horn.

With the Burbank (non-CG) trumpet, gaps on all the mouthpieces varied between 0.5mm (about 1/50”) with the Kanstul mouthpiece (which itself might have a French Taper) to a maximum of 3mm (about 1/8”) with the Schilke and Reeves models. The Bach measured at 2mm (about 1/12”). Note that while this is a pretty tight gap, this is a horn that is 47 years old and spent its entire life being played by (two different) full time professional players. As such, the receiver is probably worn down a bit.

With the CG Benge (serial number 17,184) the gaps were much larger. They varied between 3.5 and 6 millimeters (between about 1/5” and 1/4”). Note that this is also an old horn with a lot of mileage – yet its receiver seems to obviously be of a different (French) Taper.

Will be back with more later!

Cheers,

John
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
That's very interesting. I also have a Bach Commercial Trumpet, and it has the same "ledge" as my CG, just not so far down.

I was under the impression that it was pretty standard fare trumpet construction for the receiver to slide over a portion of the leadpipe. It seems that using that technique would necessarily result in a ledge. What am I missing here?

Thanks,
Marc Speed


The construction is the same I believe, but afterwards they do something to remove the ledge.

Here's a picture of my CG lead pipe as made by Kanstul:

https://ibb.co/gWYKkRB

You can still see where there was a ledge, but if you slide a pencil along the wall, it won't really catch on it. Most trumpets have a much more pronounced lip.

So there you go - fun fact!
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Speed
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the picture. Mine looks nothing like that. The ledge is prominent in my Selmer CG.

Perhaps it's a Selmer vs. Kanstul issue.

Thanks,
Marc Speed
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Speed
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to another Selmer CG owner today and asked him to check the gap on his horn. It was about 1/8th of an inch. His serial number was about a hundred away from mine, so it's closer to mine than the OP's CG.

Also, he said he could clearly see the "ledge," i.e., the end of the leadpipe, when looking down the receiver.

I'd really like to hear from some other CG owners, both Selmer and Benge.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reckon it's a Benge thing, as Kanstul uses the old Benge tooling.
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BPL
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking down my CG Selmer lead pipe. The "ledge" is not pronounced.. similar to Trumpetingbynature's photo.

Also, to update. I bought 2 pieces from Kanstul.. a replacement CGP and a CG3.. Both slot much better.. they produce a bigger gap than my old CGP (which I confess to having messed with in the past), though I haven't measured it (as yet).
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Steve Sperry
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Been following your posts for a while, especially anything pertaining to
Claude, or SA. It was cool to see that your CG Benge is only 60 away frome mine! My CG is 17125. Pretty cool.

Best,

Steve
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