Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
The resistance due the instrument AND aperture is the dominant resistance.
scottfsmith wrote:
Why is the resistance of instrument and aperture the dominant resistance? I think we can factor out the resistance of the instrument as tongue arch applies just as well to mouthpiece (and arguably free) buzzing.
Kalijah is right, but only when it comes to playing in the low and middle registers. Scott, you are right that in the upper register the resistance shifts more to that created by the arching tongue as evidenced by this:
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
The area that our mechanical force acts upon is a fixed area for each person. That is, the lung area that is subject to the exhalation muscles. You can not arbitrarily claim that you are using the same mechanical force but on a smaller area because you are not.
As blunt as this will sound, you are wrong about the above. And I think your mistaken belief illustrated above is the foundation of your misinformed point of view on this entire subject.
Every competent brass player (including you and me), whether they realize it or not, most certainly can vary how much of the lip receives the force of the air stream. When the tongue is down low and the jaw is lowered, the air pressure is acting on the entire cross section of the lips. On a low or middle range note when this is happening, the main thing that causes one part of the lips to vibrate but not the rest, is the rim of the mouthpiece. But when one arches the tongue up and forward to play a high note, the airstream is reduced to an extremely narrow jet and that jet of air only hits a tiny area of the lips. Take a look at this part of the Sarah Willis video to see this clearly being demonstrated:
This is obvious to any reasonable person. I'm not sure why it isn't clear to you. Maybe you've watched the video again, and given this some more thought and it is clear to you now. I hope so.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:45 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
The area that our mechanical force acts upon is a fixed area for each person. That is, the lung area that is subject to the exhalation muscles. You can not arbitrarily claim that you are using the same mechanical force but on a smaller area because you are not.
You are not really correct when you claim that the "lung area" the mechanical force acts upon is a "fixed area" because that surface area does actually vary in size - it deceases in size as we empty of air. But this fact is superfluous to the discussion. But what is not superfluous to this discussion is how that blowing force acts upon a varying sized area of the lips depending upon the amount of tongue arch applied. And I think your misunderstanding of that fact is the foundation of your misinformed point of view on this entire subject.
Every competent brass player (including you and me), whether they realize it or not, most certainly can vary how much of the lip receives the force of the air stream. When the tongue is down low and the jaw is lowered, the air pressure is acting on the entire cross section of the lips. On a low or middle range note when this is happening, the main thing that causes one part of the lips to vibrate but not the rest, is the rim of the mouthpiece and to some extent, the muscles at the corners of the lips. But when one arches the tongue up and forward to play a high note, the airstream is reduced to an extremely narrow jet and that jet of air only hits a tiny area of the lips. Take a look at this part of the Sarah Willis video to see this clearly being demonstrated:
In the extreme upper register, the corner muscles don't necessarily even need to make the seal they provide in the low and mid registers where the tongue arch is not as significant. There are players who when playing a double high C have such relaxed corners that the sides of their teeth can be seen through their (open) corners while playing that double high C. No air escapes through these players' corner openings because the up and forward arching tongue is also pressing against the inside edges of the upper molars creating a thin channel for the airstream, preventing the air stream from acting against the corners of the mouth - the air is focused on a tine portion of the lips under the mouthpiece cup (and area far smaller than the diameter of the mouthpiece cup).
The role of the tongue arch is clear to any reasonable person once it is explained and demonstrated to him or her. I'm not sure why it isn't clear to you. Maybe you've watched the video again, and given this some more thought and it is clear to you now. I hope so.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:50 pm Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
The tongue moves in conjunction with certain embouchure muscle involvement. It is related to the primary functions of the mouth and lips which is eating, and is related to the rejection of unwanted material from the tract such as seeds or other objectionable debris.
It is very unnatural for us to make a small aperture using the inner corners without the coordinated forward tongue movement.
Darryl, you've often made similar claims to the above, sharing your opinion that the tongue is only moving in reaction to changes in the facial and lip muscles, and movements of the lower jaw.
And yet, here is a video of Sarah Willis ascending to the extreme upper register and the only thing changing is her tongue arching more and more. Her lower jaw has already reached a high position and is no longer moving upward (as it did when going from the lower range to the middle-upper range). There is no more motion or change to be seen in her lip formation. Only her tongue continues to arch to an extreme up and forward position, creating an extremely thin channel for the air to move through - a channel that looks to me to be less than 1 mm in diameter.
Last but certainly not least: Shout out to Sarah Willis!!! That highest note she plays in these recordings is the harmonic equivalent to our Double High C. And she's playing it while lying on her back in an MRI machine. She rocks!!!
Last edited by John Mohan on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
The resistance due the instrument AND aperture is the dominant resistance.
scottfsmith wrote:
Why is the resistance of instrument and aperture the dominant resistance? I think we can factor out the resistance of the instrument as tongue arch applies just as well to mouthpiece (and arguably free) buzzing.
Kalijah is right, but only when it comes to playing in the low and middle registers. Scott, you are right that in the upper register the resistance shifts more to that created by the arching tongue as evidenced by this:
It also appears you have already made up your mind.
Huh?? Of course not.
Quote:
And, I did not say that the tongue does not have to move up to ascend. I have yet to be convinced of any causative effect.
Hey we agree on something. The difference is you are betting there is no underlying physics and I am betting there is.
The root problem as I mentioned above is these systems are very complex and it could well be there is some other variable or aspect which is the key which is not being taken into consideration.
Here is an example of another dimension which we have not yet considered. If the air is going from a wide mouth cavity immediately to the lips, the air flow will be less uniform and more turbulent. If on the other hand it is going through a narrow channel first (the arched tongue) it will be more uniform ("laminar" is the physics word I believe). Even if they have the same pressures, the turbulent flow could be less efficient at moving the lips compared to the uniform flow. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces
I imagine Claude would be a bit amused at some of the manifestos being written here (including some of mine). And he'd also be frustrated how trumpet players continue to waste good practice time arguing (again, guilty).
When I teach I follow the successful method he used. I describe to the student the general way we blow, arch our tongues and manipulate our embouchures as we play. Then I tell my students to pay attention to what his or her tongue, air and lips do as he or she practices the various flexibility, technical and range exercises I assign. There is nothing magical about the upper register. If we are practicing and playing correctly, getting to the higher notes simply requires that we continue to do more of the same.
When a student of mine is practicing a flexibility exercise that starts down low and ascends up through the harmonic series I tell that student to "learn through extrapolation" - pay attention to what you are doing as you ascend. Pay attention to how you blow stronger, your tongue arches, and pay attention to whatever you are doing with your lips (this is a very personal part of it - some people seem to pooch their lips out a little as they ascend, some seem to roll their lips inward, others feel they just hold their lips in the same position as the air power gets stronger as they ascend). Learn by extrapolation, because whatever you do to slur from a middle C to a high C, you just need to do more of that to slur from the high C to the double high C (with the caveat that the physical strength required to continue ascending must first be developed - and said strength cannot be developed by arguing on this forum). It can only be developed by proper, routine practice of the correct exercises.
As my teacher often said, "We learn to play by feel, not by theory."
Why would anyone want to do this. There are much more pleasurable ways to cause a stroke🎺🤪
Because we are trumpet players. I know. It's sad.
But its not even necessary. I can believe there is plenty of people who want the notes, I’m one. But why do they not copy the guys who dont their lives at risk getting there?? And why does everyone argue their point instead of getting to the bottom of these questions. After all this time blowing into a brass tube very few methods are settled. Is it because we guard the secrets or we just don’t really know or are we just a cantekerous bunch who won’t share?
Rod
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:00 am Post subject:
Hi Rod,
I don't think Lynn Nicholson is risking his life, at least not to a significant (measurable) level. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't generate levels of thoracic air pressure that are above the level of venous pressure when playing loud notes above the staff (which is what causes players to turn red when playing those notes). The red color is just more apparent on those with a pale complexion, including players such as Lynn Nicholson and Adolph Herseth, who himself lived to almost 92, still performing (and turning red) with the CSO into his 80's.
I don't think Lynn Nicholson is risking his life, at least not to a significant (measurable) level. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't generate levels of thoracic air pressure that are above the level of venous pressure when playing loud notes above the staff (which is what causes players to turn red when playing those notes). The red color is just more apparent on those with a pale complexion, including players such as Lynn Nicholson and Adolph Herseth, who himself lived to almost 92, still performing (and turning red) with the CSO into his 80's.
Cheers,
John
John
This is caused by playing extreme volume and not by sounding pitch, which seems to be forgotten. This is also caused to a great degree by tension. I cant understand why anyone wants to force more air thru the horn than it can possibly take. You can generate more air thru lung power than the horn can take without backing up.
It seems to me that if we want to get to the bottom of any subject it is best approached with the idea that the other person may know something that has value and understanding that point may be important to a solution. I just don’t see that here, and it is a shame that with all the knowledge here and a common goal, that we still can’t agree or work together well. This could be so much more, but like all blogs.......
Rod
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:59 am Post subject:
Hi again Rod,
Yes, extreme volume does require more air pressure, but so does extreme range. Studies have shown that each octave climb at a given volume level requires a doubling of supplied air pressure. And of course, the highest levels of air pressure are used when we play our loudest full volume high note (loud and high). Above that note (usually around an F or G for most pro-level players), we can play higher, but even though we are blowing as hard as we can, the notes get substantially softer very quickly because we are basically trading volume of sound for higher notes. One could say, when one is playing a squeaky note that is a couple of steps beyond their highest full volume note, their ego is writing checks their body can't cash.
I totally get what you are saying regarding overblowing the horn. A particular study (Blowing pressure, power, and spectrum in trumpet playing Fletcher etal 1999) concluded much the same. Blowing pressures were measured with various trumpet players as they played and compared with both the volume and register of the note. It was found that on a particular note, the relationship between air pressure and the volume of that note was fairly linear - until a certain "saturation" volume was reached, and then, even if the player doubled the air pressure the note barely got any louder. Note that this pertained to notes in the low to middle upper register. The extreme register (where most have to blow nearly as hard if not as hard as they can just to get a note of reasonably full volume) was not measured in the study.
In less academic and more real-world terms, my friend Wayne Bergeron once related to me something George Graham had shared with him. George pointed out to Wayne that one could play a High C, blowing with all his might, and then back off to about an 80% level of effort and still get 99% of the volume on the note. This was a key lesson in obtaining stamina and endurance on the horn - learning to habitually blow at no more than the 80% level and still getting a good, efficient, loud note.
Best wishes,
John
P.S. Here is the introductory abstract from that study:
P.P.S. And here is a paragraph from the study which I think is particularly interesting:
Quote:
Physiological measurements by Fiz et al.(6) on the maximum expiratory pressure that can be achieved by trumpet players—not while playing the trumpet, or indeed while actually expelling air—yielded a value of 23 (+ or - 5) kPa, in confirmation of the general level of this result, while they found that similarly fit young men who did not play any brass instrument were able to achieve expiratory pressures of only 19 (+ or - 1) kPa. Presumably muscle training accounts for this difference.
I know of other studies that have measured blowing pressures above 30 kPa in some players - levels that are more than 50% greater than that of typical fit young men.
Why would anyone want to do this. There are much more pleasurable ways to cause a stroke🎺🤪
Because we are trumpet players. I know. It's sad.
But its not even necessary.
Rod,
Do you know who Lynn Nichols is? I may not be completely down with the method espouses, but Lynn is force to be reconned with and he has had remarkable success in the upper register. I'd be loathe to tell him he doing it wrong or that his exertion is unnecessary. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Just to jump in on the assertion that going red is a sign of playing high notes 'incorrectly' I thought I'd just make a list of some British Pros who definitely 'go red' when playing and are some of the finest players I have ever heard/played with or studied under, please do take the liberty of watching them on youtube as they are all stunning players:
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