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Tpt_Guy
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 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU&feature=youtu.be
Rather interesting. At one point he even plays the instrument backwards. While not in the high register, it piqued my curiosity. So I noodled around on my horn then worked out playing it backwards. Was able to (rather weakly) slur from a second-line G up the octave to G atop the staff.
There is no tongue inside the trumpet. Its internal dimensions do not change.
How would tongue arch proponents explain this? (And don't jump on the word "weakly" because I did this for all of two minutes.)
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | First of all the video shows a player as she ascends in pitch. She is absolutely concurrently manipulating the aperture tension to ascend. |
I have never said she wasn't, except I did notice that once she reaches the final octave of her ascent, I cannot see any change in her lips or her jaw (though I readily admit there could be minute changes happening that can't be seen).
| kalijah wrote: | If you claim she is not what is your proof? How is embouchure effort measured here?
Of course you ignore this requirement because it does not fit your tongue-arch-does-all worldview. |
I wouldn't even be writing this reply except you've just completely misrepresented what I've written in the past. Please don't do that!
I have NEVER written that the "tongue-arch-does-all", or any words to that effect. As I've written many, many, many times in these discussions, I think it is a combination of air power, control of the air stream via the up and forward arching tongue (which can clearly be seen happening on the MRI video), and the muscles of the face and lips (something that cannot be seen or measured on the video, but obviously is still part of the equation) that are all involved (and of course to some extent, mouthpiece pressure - I don't know anyone who uses the same amount of mouthpiece pressure on a G above High C as on a G below Low C).
I also think that in the lower, middle and even part of the upper register lip manipulation is more responsible for changes in register (on any note below around a D above High C I can actually wag my tongue around in my mouth while sustaining a note). But once I reach around that D above High C and want to play higher (and even in the range from G on top the staff up, assuming I want to play notes of good quality), tongue arch becomes critical. I cannot play an F above High C and sustain it while moving my tongue (or my lips) into an even slightly different position.
And though I can move my tongue around in my mouth while sustaining notes in the lower and middle range, when playing flexibility exercises or slurring through notes in the harmonic series in a song, I cannot do it cleanly and musically without allowing my tongue to arch a little as I slur up each note. As can be seen on the Sarah Willis video, my tongue also seems to kind of quickly and briefly arch up and forward to "click" the note to the next harmonic and then retract a little before doing the same motion to click to the next higher harmonic while playing in the low, middle and start of the upper register. See it happening here:
https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=106
As she slurs up through the harmonic series, notice how her tongue moves forward for an instant helping "push" the note up to the next higher note, then instantly retracts back a bit, before doing the same to climb to the next higher note in the series.
This seems similar to an action-potential in terms of how neurons fire - a certain amount of air pressure must be reached to click the note to the next level and then that pressure can be relaxed. (For those not in the medical field, an action-potential is a system where a certain amount of energy must be reached before something happens. A simple example is a light switch - one can move that switch a few millimeters before anything happens, and then suddenly a point is reached where the light clicks on.)
I hope what I've written here is of value and helpful to those that want to learn and improve their playing.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WZvDvuxjHvU&feature=youtu.be
Rather interesting. At one point he even plays the instrument backwards. While not in the high register, it piqued my curiosity. So I noodled around on my horn then worked out playing it backwards. Was able to (rather weakly) slur from a second-line G up the octave to G atop the staff.
There is no tongue inside the trumpet. Its internal dimensions do not change.
How would tongue arch proponents explain this? (And don't jump on the word "weakly" because I did this for all of two minutes.) |
That is an interesting video. I've seen other similar demonstrations showing that air flow through the instrument is not a requirement (as long as the air has someplace to go after going through the lips).
As far as how his sucking air to play a note relates to tongue arch, when he does that, tongue arch is obviously not involved. It's all air pressure, air speed and lips. I think that the harder he sucks, the more the lips are drawn to each other and faster vibrations result. Note that when we blow harder, the opposite tends to happen - the increased blowing pressure causes our lips to spread out (which is why we need fairly strong embouchure muscles to prevent that from happening). I tried it, and like you I can "barely" get to a G on top of the staff doing what amounts to literally and figuratively, sucking. 
When actually playing a trumpet the normal way, tongue arch is only one part of the equation, and is certainly not a requirement. Most beginning, intermediate, and amateur players don't even employ proper tongue arch. These are the players who sound harsh when playing flexibility exercises or slurring intervals, and who struggle to play much above High C - and these are also the guys who when trying to hit a High C, tend to blast it out, and often crack down to the Bb.
Proper tongue arch is only critical when it comes to playing above High C - or playing the whole range of the trumpet at a professional level of quality.
I am reminded of this text (in particular, the part I emphasize with bold face) from the book "Trumpet Technique" by Frank Gabriel Campos, published by Oxford University Press, ISBN number 978-0-19-516693-4:
| Quote: | Over a five-year period, beginning with still photography and moving to 16 mm film with a real-to-reel audiotape that had to be manually synchronized with the movie, Haynie observed the performance technique of over seventy University of North Texas students and a number of professional performers, including Maurice André, Gerard Schwarz and the members of the American Brass Quintet, Richard Giangiulio (former principal of the Dallas Symphony), and big band leader Claude Gordon.
French trumpet virtuoso Maurice André was astounded: he was completely unaware that the tongue arched to produce changes in register. Like many of the world's finest players, he just did it without thinking. According to Haynie, few of the study participants had an opinion about the actions of their tongue and no one could describe exactly what happened inside the oral cavity. It is interesting to note that many of the poorer players improved by observing and imitating the action of the tongues of the finest players as demonstrated in the videotape. [emphasis added] |
Cheers,
John |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | she slurs up through the harmonic series, notice how her tongue moves forward for an instant helping "push" the note up to the next higher note, then instantly retracts back a bit, before doing the same to climb to the next higher note in the series. |
This sudden movement of the tongue has everything to do with the embouchure muscular effort to move up quickly to the next partial. It has nothing to do with air pressure.
It is not the pressure of the air that determines the pitch, it is the posture of the aperture. To make a quick change requires a sudden and intense, but brief, effort from the embouchure. Otherwise the change in partial would be slow and sloppy. This action coordinates with an abrupt tongue movement. But to sustain the pitch does not require as much aperture effort as during the quick change in pitch. Thus the tongue settles back to a position where it would naturally reside for that amount of embouchure effort to sustain that pitch.
A sudden movement of the tongue up would not increase the pressure in the oral space above what the lungs are providing. The lungs determine the air pressure. The airway from the lungs to the oral space is an extremely low resistance air path. (remember? "open throat!") Therefore it would not be possible to raise the oral space air pressure by using the tongue. Even abruptly.
It is easy to control the air pressure from the lungs as to do an abrupt change in air pressure to sustain the loudness of tone. That is the only way one can control air pressure in this case. The tongue does not increase air pressure in any way while playing from lung air pressure.
Last edited by kalijah on Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:21 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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The tongue moves in sympathy with the the inner corner embouchure muscles. It is related to the base function of the mouth which is survival. Eating nutrients and expelling refuse. It is an OBVIOUS observation to me. Is it to ANYONE else?
Most players do it regardless of level of skill or even the amount of tongue awareness (or obsession).
It is a simple explanation that does not require complicated and barely understood "physics". These "physics" explanations not only fall short when under scrutiny, but they MANY times misrepresent science itself. They are usually presented by those who barely understand the subject, if at all. EPECIALLY if presented by "expert" players and teachers who are really only repeating what they have heard, or expressing their mental "visualizations", and not what they actually studied or measured. And YES they often do disagree with my objections. (Or even attack my playing, sound-unheard) But if they wish to argue the science with me I say.. BRING IT ON !
As much as some players and teachers LOVE to make profound "explanations" that give the credit to air pressure, air speed, oral resonance ALL as influenced by the tongue position or blowing effort, the lowly lip aperture is barely given its obvious and deserved due.
(However real scientists that study the subject understand it's causative role of frequency played.) |
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Shifty
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | The tongue moves in sympathy with the the inner corner embouchure muscles. It is related to the base function of the mouth which is survival. Eating nutrients and expelling refuse. It is an OBVIOUS observation to me. Is it to ANYONE else?
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Yes. And I admire the patience you've shown on this thread almost as much as I value the content of all your posts on this subject.
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scottfsmith
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | It is an OBVIOUS observation to me. Is it to ANYONE else?
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I think the problem is its so obvious to you that you are not making a clear explanation of what you are asserting, instead you are just bumping up the font size on your assertion. I have tried various muscle movements, spitting seeds, etc and I remain just as clueless as to what you are talking about - my tongue does nothing like it does with trumpet high notes when I do that.
I'd like to hear a clear explanation of what experiment we could do to see the effect you are talking about.
You also have yet to reply to the last points I made above.
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | | kalijah wrote: | | It is an OBVIOUS observation to me. Is it to ANYONE else?
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I think the problem is its so obvious to you that you are not making a clear explanation of what you are asserting, instead you are just bumping up the font size on your assertion. I have tried various muscle movements, spitting seeds, etc and I remain just as clueless as to what you are talking about - my tongue does nothing like it does with trumpet high notes when I do that.
I'd like to hear a clear explanation of what experiment we could do to see the effect you are talking about.
You also have yet to reply to the last points I made above. |
I think if all you Mr. Nye the science guy types would just spend a little time with the Windworks Mystery to Mastery course that this debate would end fairly quickly. The aperture rules the roost on pitch - air for volume, and tongue articulation. The truth is there, your body will tell you as you work Thur the program. This has been an an interesting discussion and read but if you just want to put your head down and get those notes without stroking out do some investigation on the program. I personally wasn’t invested in any view of hi note playing but found this system to make sense and lead to developments. I have always found tongue arch as a conscious effort cut down my expiration rate and brought on a choking or backup feeling. If you are really interested in understanding this and want to play easier try the free trial. I certainly don’t get anything out of this recommendation but the satisfaction of knowing some may find what I did, and start making real progress. None of us are calibrated instruments and even the best learn this on their own terms and by their own methods. If 1wat of thinking gets you there then fine you’re there, if another way of looking at it achieves then great. At this point I am just searching for the quickest way to strengthen the aperture, haven’t gotten to that in the program. I’m with Darrell here as I have worked tongue arch and breath and abdominal support to death with no real success, working to get a stronger aperture and more relaxed system has had results. Not saying that the results can’t be achieved other ways but for me it hasn’t worked and is entirely too much strenuous effort.
Rod |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | A sudden movement of the tongue up would not increase the pressure in the oral space above what the lungs are providing. |
I think it can. In fact, when one uses the technique we call Circular Breathing, one raises the tongue up and forward quickly to push the air through the lips to continue playing, all the while sucking in air through the nose. During this brief time there is positive air pressure in the oral cavity while there is negative air pressure in the lungs.
But that said, perhaps "air pressure" is the wrong terminology to describe what I was observing on the video at https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=106 . But I do think that in the middle to upper register, the motion of the tongue that can clearly be seen quickly pushing up and forward each time an instant before the note changes up to the next higher note on that video is causal in the change in notes. I could be wrong. I doubt I am. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | The tongue moves in sympathy with the the inner corner embouchure muscles. It is related to the base function of the mouth which is survival. Eating nutrients and expelling refuse. It is an OBVIOUS observation to me. Is it to ANYONE else?
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No matter how large of a font you use, you cannot change anatomical or physiological facts. In terms of motor function the tongue is innervated mainly by the 12th Cranial Nerve (the Hypoglossal Nerve), and partially by the Vagus Nerve (Cranial Nerve 10). In terms of motor function the lips are innervated by various branches of the Facial Nerve (Cranial Nerve 7). The tongue does not automatically move "in sympathy" to the motions of the lips or contractions of the face muscles (though when eating and swallowing they all obviously work together). But both can be moved independently from each other. This I have learned in the Anatomy and Physiology classes I have taken.
I think what Kalijah is trying to describe regarding corner tightening and tongue arch is that when one tightens the corners of the mouth the lower jaw tends to rise, and since the tongue is partially attached to the lower jaw, when the lower jaw goes up, the tongue is also raised. This is true - we can all feel it - perhaps it is even "obvious". But from a medical point of view this is not a reflex and the amount the tongue moves up is minuscule compared to what we see the tongue doing on the MRI video as Susan Willis ascends through the top octave to what would be our Double High C (while the lips and jaw remain perfectly still on the video).
As can clearly be seen on the video that I earlier cited and referenced, Susan Willis's lower jaw stops moving upward and her lips stop moving toward each other when she reaches what would be the relative equivalent of our High C. Yet as she continues to ascend, her tongue can clearly be seen to continue arching up and forward as she reaches the equivalent of our Double High C at which point her tongue is arched all the way up and forward creating a tiny air passage for the airstream to go through.
In looking back at the years of "discussion" of this subject of the role of the tongue level between Darryl ("Kalijah") and me, in addition to sharing what I have learned in both my Biomedical Engineering education and now my Nursing education (not to mention years of study with Claude Gordon and two top level professional orchestral players, Robert Pratt and Larry Elam, who studied personally with Bill Adam and William Vacchiano respectively and the experiences gained during my own 30+ year professional career), I have cited research papers from a number of Universities, and also provided references to several studies involving Fluoroscopic Films and lately an MRI study done at an internationally renowned medical research facility - the video from said MRI study confirming completely what I have been saying on this website for sixteen years concerning the movement and role of the tongue in reaching the highest notes (which by no coincidence is exactly what the vast majority of professional trumpet players and teaching authorities say about the role of tongue arch). Daryl has supplied his opinion (dressed up as proclamations of almost biblical proportions). And he has backed up his ideas and opinions with... more proclamations.
I am reminded of a saying they have in Texas. Big hat, no cattle. 
Cheers,
John
P.S. Wordy, I know. Before this actually does hit page 6, I'm bailing out. Darryl, you're welcome to have your usual last word(s). Best wishes to you and all! |
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JetJaguar
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:48 am Post subject: |
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I actually don't know which way the tongue is supposed to arch.
Is it:
1. longitudinal taco shell
2. longitudinal inverted taco shell
3. lateral taco shell
4. lateral inverted taco shell
?
I did some googling and couldn't find anything definitive.
thanks
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it a bit more like a bent burrito with quacamole. |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| jetjaguar wrote: | I actually don't know which way the tongue is supposed to arch.
Is it:
1. longitudinal taco shell
2. longitudinal inverted taco shell
3. lateral taco shell
4. lateral inverted taco shell
?
I did some googling and couldn't find anything definitive.
thanks |
Just say the word "sea". That is the general position of the tongue on higher notes, especially higher notes that are not being played loudly. In particular, when playing above High C the position your tongue needs to be in is approximately the same as when making the "sss" sound.
Note that the exact position the tongue needs to be in cannot be described, only the general way it moves can be described. But with practice you'll be able to feel where it needs to be. This is important (and it might be of help to you, Rod, too: Don't try to force your tongue to arch and also be sure it arches up and forward as you play higher (not toward the rear of your mouth). Tongue arch toward the back of the mouth will cut off the air and choke off the sound.
My teacher had a stamp he used to stamp on every page of our flexibility and range exercise books. It said, "WATCH THE TONGUE". What he meant by this was that we should pay attention to how our tongues move and learn the way it needs to move without trying to force it to move. He'd say to me, "Watch your tongue. Pay attention to it and it'll teach you more than you'll ever teach it."
I hope this is helpful!
Best wishes,
John
P.S. Did I just take your bait?
Last edited by John Mohan on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | | I think it a bit more like a bent burrito with quacamole. |
Sounds yummy!  |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think it’s just the way we look at it. I try to form the proper aperture and the tongue go’s where it needs for me and yes it it up (once I get the note tho I can consciously lower the tongue and hold the pitch.?). And you think tongue and the face does what it needs to do. I think we all know an aperture is needed and that the tongue does something toward the roof of the mouth, we probably all do nearly the same thing to play a hi e and a little above. We may even do the same things above that but it takes a lot of coordination and no one factor works alone. I think if you would take the radiological studies and put them side by side with a synchronized movie of the play compare that it would show great interplay between the tongue and the face/aperture. Now decide which controls which 🤔 and since playing trumpet is learned and not a talent we are born with, which are voluntary reflexive actions and which are learned non reflexive actions. Isn’t making the note the important thing. Has knowing whether it was tongue or aperture ever made anyone a hi note specialist, and why didn’t he share?
Rod |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Haney wrote: | I think it’s just the way we look at it. I try to form the proper aperture and the tongue go’s where it needs for me and yes it it up (once I get the note tho I can consciously lower the tongue and hold the pitch.?). And you think tongue and the face does what it needs to do. I think we all know an aperture is needed and that the tongue does something toward the roof of the mouth, we probably all do nearly the same thing to play a hi e and a little above. We may even do the same things above that but it takes a lot of coordination and no one factor works alone. I think if you would take the radiological studies and put them side by side with a synchronized movie of the play compare that it would show great interplay between the tongue and the face/aperture. Now decide which controls which 🤔 and since playing trumpet is learned and not a talent we are born with, which are voluntary reflexive actions and which are learned non reflexive actions. Isn’t making the note the important thing. Has knowing whether it was tongue or aperture ever made anyone a hi note specialist, and why didn’t he share?
Rod |
Very well stated. Regarding your last sentence, I don't think the simple knowledge of how the tongue or aperture work will make anyone great at anything. One could spend hours describing every intricate detail of how to ride a bicycle, and all the mechanics involved, but without practice the new rider is going to "go to ground".
And the fact is many great players achieved greatness not having a clue of what their tongues were doing - Maurice André being one of them. He thought he kept his tongue flat in his mouth all the time, until he saw it arch on John Haynie's X-Ray film. I'm sure many great players really didn't/don't understand exactly what their lips are doing either. I think it's helpful to know the general way the lips and tongue work - but not a requirement to be sure. And lastly, I believe it isn't tongue or aperture. I believe it's both, in combination with air power.
If Darryl doesn't disagree with what you wrote, then by golly, an armistice might be being reached around here.  |
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JetJaguar
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: |
P.S. Did I just take your bait? |
No, I'm really interested in which of those four best describe the arch. Taco shell may be somewhat irreverent, but it will be sufficiently illustrative for me.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jetjaguar wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: |
P.S. Did I just take your bait? |
No, I'm really interested in which of those four best describe the arch. Taco shell may be somewhat irreverent, but it will be sufficiently illustrative for me. |
I don't think a taco shell is useful to describe the shape an arching tongue makes because that's not the shape the tongue makes. Maybe these two segments from the video (one from the front and one from the side) showing Sarah Willis's tongue arch when playing from the low into the extreme upper register could be helpful.
From the front:
https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=434
When she reaches the top note, in the view from the front, part of her tongue does sort of take on the shape of a longitudinal right side up taco shell, but when the rest of the tongue is factored in, the shape becomes more complicated.
From the side:
https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=110
I really don't think it's necessary to study and know the exact shape or position of an individual's tongue on particular note or in a particular register. Knowing the general way the tongue moves is what can be helpful. Practicing the correct material correctly is what is absolutely necessary in my opinion.
Cheers,
John |
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JetJaguar
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Well useful or not, I think it's transverse inverted taco shell. Unless someone wants to explain different.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| jetjaguar wrote: | | Well useful or not, I think it's transverse inverted taco shell. Unless someone wants to explain different. |
I can understand that assuming you mean when looking at it from the side. But there is also the issue of how the sides of the tongue push against the inside sides of the top molars and gums on higher notes sealing the air off from the area between the outside of the molars and gums, and the cheeks. When I play in the low or middle range there is air pressure in my cheeks. But when I ascend above high C there is no air pressure in my cheeks. I've demonstrated this to be true by placing a hollow, non-collapsible coffee stirrer through the corner of my lips into that area, and when playing lower notes air leaks out of the stirrer, but when playing higher notes the air stops leaking out. This also explains how some players when playing in the extreme upper register have gaps in the corners of their mouths through which the sides of their teeth can be seen.
So perhaps it can be described as a hybrid cross between a transverse inverted taco shell and a Pringles potato chip.
Cheers,
John |
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