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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: Group Communication |
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Our seven-piece trad band is still struggling with how to keep the music flowing smoothly from lead-in to solos to out chorus. Several of us lean toward a more flexible style in which the flow is more like a conversation with people chiming in spontaneously. Others in the group are uncomfortable unless there is an established roadmap that specifies who is soloing when.
What’s your take? _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Rehearsals are for the purpose of reaching an agreement on these issues and coordinating accordingly. The rehearsal is not for the purpose of practicing something that should have been prepared before the rehearsal. The leader dictates the plan. Those who don't agree with or otherwise oppose/resist the plan should be cut from the ensemble. Rehearsals are for COORDINATING. They are not for learning the music.
Rehearsals are not democracies or public opinion polls. Those that provide the money and take the risk are 100% in charge. Constructive input is fine. Arrogance is not fine. If you don't like that then come up with your own money, take the risk of forming and funding your own band and take your arrogant/uncooperative attitude somewhere else. You are easily replaced. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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MikeGreeninger Regular Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2016 Posts: 67
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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My best big band experience was with a community college group. The leader would stand in front and just gesture at each to tell them to take the next solo. Obviously, the players could wave off if they weren't up to it but that rarely happened. The director would also cue in the band if he wanted pads behind the solo, and also when it was time to move on. Very flexible for both the band and the players. Very little drama.
In bands I thought handled is less well, they would quibble over who would solo, and for how long and in what order. Then players would need to scribble it into the margins to make sure they didn't forget. Then there'd be bickering if someone ran long or went out of turn. This was a drag during rehearsal and too often resulted in drama. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Out front line generally blows on everything so it's simply a matter of picking who plays the first solo and cueing that player with my horn, or via eye contact.
I usually blow second since I'm directing traffic, and I can continue to do so during the third solo.
I'm not the leader, I just direct traffic. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | Rehearsals are for the purpose of reaching an agreement on these issues and coordinating accordingly. The rehearsal is not for the purpose of practicing something that should have been prepared before the rehearsal. The leader dictates the plan. Those who don't agree with or otherwise oppose/resist the plan should be cut from the ensemble. Rehearsals are for COORDINATING. They are not for learning the music.
I don't know how far your learning the music goes but rehearsals are also for constructing an interpretation.
Rehearsals are not democracies or public opinion polls. Those that provide the money and take the risk are 100% in charge. Constructive input is fine. Arrogance is not fine. If you don't like that then come up with your own money, take the risk of forming and funding your own band and take your arrogant/uncooperative attitude somewhere else. You are easily replaced. |
I am not sure the guy who fixes the jobs will also be the ideal musical director. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Jeff, thanks for that good advice! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:53 am Post subject: Re: Group Communication |
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jhatpro wrote: | Our seven-piece trad band is still struggling with how to keep the music flowing smoothly from lead-in to solos to out chorus. Several of us lean toward a more flexible style in which the flow is more like a conversation with people chiming in spontaneously. Others in the group are uncomfortable unless there is an established roadmap that specifies who is soloing when.
What’s your take? |
In the two big bands I play in we always discuss the solo order during the rehearsals - everybody has a pencil, makes the notations and that´s it. However this might result in sheets filled with (for someone else) illegible scribble - even more complicated if , as is the case in the swingband where a new constellation is supposed to play scores played almost 50 years ago....So please use black lead pencils.
Main point - fix this during rehearsals; In your case, a 7 piece band maybe no scores, you will have to negotiate. Or play by cue - I´ve seen&heard so many dixiecombos just nod to each other, specifying by say 2 fingers next solo round should be 16 bars.
Your problem seems to be a "group thing" - some people getting uncomfortable if they don´t know the order beforehand - others drawing inspiration from the moment.
I suggest a meeting dedicated to discussion - people can put forward their pros and cons, stating why this or that - hopefully resulting in a more creative group mood. And the feeling that the problem was shared (taken seriously)- and now everyone may have his/her day, directing one´s feet in a wanted direction. You gotta keep the group satisfied! Or else! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:25 am Post subject: |
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More good advice - thanks! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Group Communication |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | I suggest a meeting dedicated to discussion - |
As a friend of mine frequently says, tongue-in-cheek: "Nothing good ever comes from a band meeting."
_________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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GizB Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 200
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I try to avoid having every player solo on every tune. Some players will do well on some tunes, and not others. I also do this for variety to alleviate listener fatigue. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:39 am Post subject: Re: Group Communication |
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jazz_trpt wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | I suggest a meeting dedicated to discussion - |
As a friend of mine frequently says, tongue-in-cheek: "Nothing good ever comes from a band meeting."
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I tend to agree but grumpiness - ignored - can stall a band. I´ve played in orchestras (bands) since 1958 so I know there´s always a more or less subdued complaining regarding almost everything concievable. My point was putting this on the table. To become eaten or frowned at.
It don´t mean a thing if it ain´t syncronized! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:45 am Post subject: |
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I was listening to Preservation Hall Jazz Band this morning and thought of this thread. Calling out the next soloist doesn't seem to disrupt the flow for them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BBgP0_cxQE
For those of us with bands made up of, shall we say, people of advanced years, forgetting where you are comes up often. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I once called the next soloist, an excellent sax player with a truly bizarre sense of humor. I had called him by name, sort of introducing him to the audience. He immediately shouted into a vocal mic, "DON'T CALL MY NAME! I OWE MONEY!"
It brought the house down. Everybody was laughing out loud. Without missing a beat, the sax player jumped in on his solo to a big round of applause.
After that experience, I just point!
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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tomba51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 619 Location: Hilton Head, SC
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Richard mentioned the Preservation Hall Jazz Band a couple of posts above this. Coincidentally I'm visiting New Orleans now and I just saw them at Preservation Hall last night. The great trumpet player Leroy Jones was featured that night. EVERY song had the same solo order - sax, bone, trumpet, piano, bass, and either drum solo or trading 4's with the drums. Nobody in the audience got bored with the solo order, nobody complained about the solo order, all the musicians were happy because they all soloed an equal amount. If it's good enough for them...... _________________ Tom Barreca |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Speed wrote: | I once called the next soloist, an excellent sax player with a truly bizarre sense of humor. I had called him by name, sort of introducing him to the audience. He immediately shouted into a vocal mic, "DON'T CALL MY NAME! I OWE MONEY!"
It brought the house down. Everybody was laughing out loud. Without missing a beat, the sax player jumped in on his solo to a big round of applause.
After that experience, I just point!
Take care,
Marc Speed |
Too good. Made my day. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Oncewasaplayer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 974
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:20 am Post subject: |
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My band struggles a bit with these issues. A couple of players need to write down solo order. However after playing together over time, everyone has become better at looking up at each solo transition to see what might happen. Sometimes I'll point to someone and a different person jumps in. Sometimes the soloist is surprised and doesn't play for a few bars--and that's ok.
Create an atmosphere of surprise, mystery and perhaps terror on this issue until everyone is paying attention on the stage during the solo transitions. (This level of attention can only come once the band really knows the music.) _________________ Getzen 800DLX cornet
Selmer Sigma trumpet |
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