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Flugelhorn shank too big


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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn shank too big Reply with quote

Can the shank of a flugelhorn mouthpiece, that is too big, be altered/modified to the specifications of a large morse taper (yamaha taper)? In a situation where I can pick-up a mouthpiece I've been looking for, that is no longer produced, but I'm told that the shank is too big. I am of the belief that I could take the mouthpiece to a custom shop that deals with mouthpieces and have them alter the mp to the correct the taper/size shank.

appreciate the feedback
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pinstriper
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A better strategy might be a new leadpipe for the flugel. No permanent changes to regret.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New leadpipe is a good suggestion.

While pricey, another option is to have someone such as Matt Frost scan and copy the mouthpiece but make the copy with the correct shank for your flugel. The benefit is he can make new ones anytime and he can mix and match from his own designs or his duplications catalog.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't consider installing a new leadpipe because that would limit the mouthpiece to just that one flugelhorn and I would be unable to use any other mouthpiece on that flugelhorn either.

having the mouthpiece scanned and copied to the correct proportions is a good idea, but I don't believe that would be cost effective for me. I want to believe that if the existing shank could be altered to the correct large more proportions without damaging the rest of the mouthpiece this would cost less than scans and copies.

Thanks for the comments.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, are you sure that the shank is too big?
And yes, within certain obvious limitations a shank can be made smaller. I own a (Yamaha) Canadian Brass Regular trumpet mouthpiece of which the shank is made to fit a Conn pré 1958 cornet. That's a big change. Only the plating of the shank has gone.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the direction(s) of either a second leadpipe with the appropriate receiver or a copy of the mouthpiece that you like with the appropriate shank.

Not only is the alteration you're thinking of perminent but any alterations affect more than you think... any little change will have an affect upon areas that are surprising.

There are mouthpieces that are wonderful that don't cost an arm and a leg...
Curry comes to mind, but there are many others, that are not only great pieces but are available in all the different Flugel morse sizes.
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superviking805
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJtpt31 wrote:
I wouldn't consider installing a new leadpipe because that would limit the mouthpiece to just that one flugelhorn and I would be unable to use any other mouthpiece on that flugelhorn either.


I don't know which flugel you own but for the majority the leadpipe is interchangeable and costs less than a mouthpiece. I have a set of 3 large, small, and French, for my horn that were around $50 ea
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contact a mouthpiece expert like Bob Reeves and tell them about the mouthpiece and they should be bel to tell you if the shank can be machined to suit.

That said, I also favor your buying an extra mouthpipe with a proper receiver so that you can swap between shanks as you like. Less expensive, and you don't have to alter the unreplaceable mouthpiece.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just out of curiosity, what mouthpiece is it?
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the mouthpiece?
This is for a Yamaha flugel?
Does the mpc shank have a taper or is the shank straight?
And, how do you know that the shank is too big? Was it measured, does it wobble, does it not engage the receiver?

Brian Scriver
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the mouthpiece is for your Conn Flugel which is from the 1960's and made in Switzerland, they take a cornet sized shank, I believe.

You can check it easily enough.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Contact a mouthpiece expert like Bob Reeves and tell them about the mouthpiece and they should be bel to tell you if the shank can be machined to suit.

That said, I also favor your buying an extra mouthpipe with a proper receiver so that you can swap between shanks as you like. Less expensive, and you don't have to alter the unreplaceable mouthpiece.


Reached out to them and it sounds like they can help. I don't think I'll need to go getting a new mouthpipe route.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffM729 wrote:
If the mouthpiece is for your Conn Flugel which is from the 1960's and made in Switzerland, they take a cornet sized shank, I believe.

You can check it easily enough.


It takes a large morse taper (Yamaha taper). Cornet shank will not fit.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the brand and model of the mouthpiece? The chances are that you could find a very similar cup and rim in another brand.
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pinstriper
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJtpt31 wrote:
I wouldn't consider installing a new leadpipe because that would limit the mouthpiece to just that one flugelhorn and I would be unable to use any other mouthpiece on that flugelhorn either.

-snip-


Flugel leadpipes are removable, as they function as the tuning slide. It isn't a permanent modification to the instrument or mouthpiece.

So, if your mouthpiece is large morse, and the original leadpipe is small morse or french taper, getting a new leadpipe for large morse allows you to use that mouthpiece, or any other large morse mouthpiece with that flugel.

And that mouthpiece is already compatible with every other large morse flugel.

Substitute small, large, or french taper in the above as the situation fits.

If your mouthpiece is some vintage taper and not large or small morse, or french taper, then you are ALREADY in the situation where that mouthpiece can't be used with other horns.

I think we're back to needing to know what this mystery mouthpiece is in the first place.
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robcs
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 for swapping the leadpipe, assuming it’s a tuning leadpipe, like most flugels.

Like one of the other posters, I have a different leadpipe for each taper so I can switch between favorite mouthpieces. It takes seconds to do.

Just make sure you measure the OD accuratelh, and don’t assume it’s the same as the main bore. I made that mistake the first time I bought one and I ended up with a pipe that was too large. Fortunately, it fit another flugel!
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there may be a misunderstanding of terminology: Leadpipe vs mouthpiece. To me a leadpipe is the mounted onto horn and connects into the valve block. A mouthpipe is the piece that is inserted into the leadpipe and acts as a tuning slide. The first two responders mentioned a new leadpipe which I took to mean the pipe that is mounted and connects to the valve block. Operating with this understanding, I didn't think it would make sense for me to have a new leadpipe installed onto my flugelhorn. What they meant was to look into getting a new removable pipe (I would describe this as the mouthpipe) on my flugelhorn.

which is more appropriate leadpipe or mouthpipe? are they interchangeable?

I see the merit in this, however, right now for me, I don't think I would need to go this route. My flugelhorn uses a large morse taper, so I only look at mouthpieces that are offered with a large morse taper. Effectively, I wouldn't need any other pipe (bach or french taper).

The mouthpiece that I am looking at purchasing, based on what the seller has told me, is the mouthpiece shank is bigger than a large morse taper. The shank doesn't fit the parameters of a yamaha, bach or french taper. I believe it defective inventory because of the disproportioned shank size.
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every poster here meant the removable pipe of course.
Still you don't mention the mouthpiece. The problem is, a flügelhorn mouthpiece that is too big for a large morse taper can't be a flügelhorn mouthpiece with one exception: the German shank which is something like a trumpet shank and is used on German and Austrian rotary flügels. As a VERY rough generalisation: these mouthpieces are not a first choice for a perinet flügel.
At the same time there is so much confusion about flügelhorn mp tapers that you can't go blindly on somebody else's words.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJtpt31 wrote:
I think there may be a misunderstanding of terminology: Leadpipe vs mouthpiece. To me a leadpipe is the mounted onto horn and connects into the valve block. A mouthpipe is the piece that is inserted into the leadpipe and acts as a tuning slide. The first two responders mentioned a new leadpipe which I took to mean the pipe that is mounted and connects to the valve block. Operating with this understanding, I didn't think it would make sense for me to have a new leadpipe installed onto my flugelhorn. What they meant was to look into getting a new removable pipe (I would describe this as the mouthpipe) on my flugelhorn.


Leadpipe and mouthpipe are typically synonymous, and on a flugelhorn refer to the removable portion. It is analogous to the leadpipe on a trumpet or a cornet, as in it is the first length of pipe after the mouthpiece engagement. Some players refer to a flugelhorn leadpipe as a tuning shank or a tuning bit, but still understand when others call it a leadpipe.

The portion attached to the horn is a receiver, just like, say, the main tuning slide assembly on a trumpet - the outer slides are also receivers.

The leadpipe assembly on a flugelhorn also functions as the main tuning slide.

Replacing the leadpipe on a flugelhorn is easy because one can be made and turned to the correct diameter to fit into the receiver without modifying the instrument (no torches or solder).
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJtpt31 wrote:
The mouthpiece that I am looking at purchasing, based on what the seller has told me, is the mouthpiece shank is bigger than a large morse taper. The shank doesn't fit the parameters of a yamaha, bach or french taper. I believe it defective inventory because of the disproportioned shank size.


If you take the new mouthpiece to a machine shop along with another mouthpiece they can use as a model of the dimensions of how you want the shank to end up they may be able to put the new mouthpiece on a lathe and hone it down to size. You just need to find a machine shop that will do very small jobs like this and ask them.
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