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35-year range and endurance plateau. Help?


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swingtime
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: 35-year range and endurance plateau. Help? Reply with quote

Hi everyone.
I’m at the end of my tether here. I’m 48. I started trumpet at 12/13, weekly lessons at school. I loved it from the moment I took my first rented, battered old cornet out of its case and was an enthusiastic student. I learned quickly, as kids do, and passed my first (UK Grade 3) exam. My parents bought me a new student model Jupiter trumpet shortly after and I whizzed through my Grade 4. The Jupiter came with a big Yamaha mouthpiece with a narrow, rounded rim. Then I started learning my pieces and études for the Grade 5 exam, which required extending my range to A above the staff. I just could not do it. My teacher was just a local brass band player, and I don’t remember him having any other solution than, ‘Just practise, it’ll come’. I slowly lost my enthusiasm around then - I thought I’d found something I could excel at, but no - that A could only be got by ramming that painful rim hard against my lips and blowing hard, and even that was no guarantee. (In photos of myself from that time, I had a pretty extreme downstream setup, like Shorty Rogers. I don’t know how if that was due to natural limitations - my teeth alignment is normal - or the fact that I was small for my age and shy). Up to G was easy, but Ab and A was like switching to a different instrument. I quit and had fun teaching myself some piano instead, but I always missed the trumpet.

When I was 19/20, I heard Dizzy and Miles and fell in love with their music. I got the trumpet out again and played happily, still not managing to get over that G, but my fingers and ears were fast so I was having fun learning theory by myself, jamming to Aebersold and playing in funk bands. (Note: my setup was nearer horizontal now due to standing and projecting towards the audience. It’s been like this - only slightly downstream - since.) I bought a Yamaha 6310 - the one before the ‘Z’ and fell in love with it. At the time I was on a stock Yamaha 7c mouthpiece. I had periodic down periods about my lack of range (my endurance was bad too) and sought help and advice from a couple of professionals, who recommended long tones, pedals, Caruso, Arban, flexibitities - the usual stuff. This would lead to my chops feeling great (for me - A and Bb above the staff!) about one gig in ten, then my playing would return to where it was, even though I kept practising this stuff.

Anyway, ten years of this, and I took a Jazz performance degree. One-on-one lessons with a pro who could eat up Brownie transcriptions, played in West End shows and big bands - a great, strong player. But no advance in range or endurance for me. He analysed my breathing, my ‘corners’, my pressure, everything. (I was now using a Marcinkiewicz no. 7.) Well, I got through the course, and I learned a lot. I can solo fluently on Parker tunes (for about a chorus, before my lips go on strike), but I can’t play a head like Donna Lee with any reliability because it goes above G.

Shortly after graduating, I landed a gig with a great bunch of local heroes in the top venue in my city. Absolute disaster. Nerves compounded my usual endurance problems and I struggled through two choruses of a mid-tempo tune and half a chorus of ‘Valentine’ before another soloist stepped in and saved me. I left the stage snd watched the rest of the gig from the bar. A horrible, humiliating experience. For the next twelve years I just played piano - my failings with the instrument I love most were too painful. I couldn’t even bear to listen to jazz.

A year ago, I played for fun at a party, and enjoyed myself so much that I started practising again. I set myself some rules: no expectations, and accept that progress (if any) will be slow. In the back of my mind was the thought that I want to play jazz when I retire. I don’t want to lie on my deathbed in 30 years and regret never giving the trumpet another shot. I read Kenny Werner regularly to keep relaxed and music-focused about the whole endeavour, played my long tones, and was getting better. I had a comeback gig of sorts - just three tunes. After the rehearsal, I could have cried with joy - I had a nice bubbly tone, clean attack, and a squeaky but reliable range up to C! And I could play and play and play without getting tired. At the actual gig the next week, my playing was at about 70% of that. At another gig a couple of weeks later, I was a bit worse. I’ve tried and tried, but I can’t get my playing back on the way up again. I recently got a soul band gig where I knew I’d have to get above the staff, so I cleaned up an old Al Cass 1-28 I had tried and given up on before. Now, A is almost reliable if I set my chops and blow hard, but anything over that is pot luck, and my tone is horrible. I thought I could tame this mouthpiece and get a Kenny Dorham vibe with long tones, so I’ve got to the point where I can belt out a fat low G and play whisper tones from top to bottom, but it still sounds shrill, and my attack is fluffy. I’ve been on this piece for eight weeks now, nothing is getting better, and I’ve added a measly and not particularly pleasant whole tone to my range. I’m lucky in that I work part-time, so I usually manage about two-three hours’ practise per day, in chunks of 15-20 minutes.

Why oh why does this range and endurance problem never go away? I don’t want to scream, I just want a nice, warm tone, a normal, two-and-a-half octave range, and the chops to get me through a ninety-minute gig.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great first post. And I'm sorry you've been so frustrated. I can play just a bit higher than you seem to but I continue to struggle with range and endurance.

I'm decidedly critical of those that say just practice and it will come. That may be true for some, but certainly not for all. From what you've said it sounds like you haven't found the right teacher. If I had the time and money I'd likely be knocking on the doors of Pops McLaughlin, Charlie Porter, or Greg Spence. There certainly other well-respected chop doctors but these guys are credited with fixing a lot of players. And also note that the three I mention all have significant web presences so you can scope them out quite a bit and decide whether or not to invest further into the approaches they espouse.

Hope you make progress and share with us how you did.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you should take a skype lesson with one of the Reinhardt students. They might be able to see something that you are doing that is impeding your progress. There is a dedicated forum on this site.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also A: not a supporter of, and B: frustrated by the ever-present suggestion that everything will always sort itself out with patience and hard work. Clearly that works for some people, but I worked hard and patiently for a long time (like, a decade of daily practice) with little progress for most of that time.

Some people are quite successful with the standard pedagogy, but others don't connect or flourish with it, for whatever reason. Seeking out someone who teaches differently (Peter Bond, in my case) has led to far more progress in the past two or three years than the decade that preceded them. As far as who to see, or what to look for, that's hard to answer based on what you wrote. That disclaimer offered, if you watch video of the masters playing (Maurice André, or Rafael Mendez, for instance), you'll generally be able to observe that most of them appear to be using very little physical effort to play, outside of extremes of volume or range. If you're blowing much harder than the amount of air and physical engagement that you'd use when speaking to a large room full of people, you're probably working against an inefficient embouchure/physical setup, which will wear through any amount of strength in very little time. (And, without a significant reset, will never be refined to a point that can deliver what you want.)
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect you are looking at this quite emotionally, instead of dispassionately. the issue is that what you been doing on the trumpet has NOT helped your range. SO, you need to find a different way to practice and develop. It's not uncommon (actually, very common) and you will see professionals who have limitations and they decide that is that. No more.

Instead, you'll need to accept that it's time for a journey of discovery. I know that with a performance degree, study in Europe and the US my range was still essentially, cr@p. But I did work did play a lot and enjoyed a reasonable living. With a teaching gig for the pat 20 years I've also been able to work on my playing and much of my range issues are gone. Bach cantatas and Telemann concertos are not impossibilities now.

For me, it was much of what I didn't do in my undergrad course:

Buzzing, especially free buzzing
pitch bending - Neilson style
pedal notes and range extension - a-la Maggio
a change of mouthpieces to a single rim and mostly cup as well. (For piccolo, using these Monette mouthpieces was a game changer)

This, and hours in the shed worked for me, there is something, and it's not the same, which will work for you...

cheers

Andy
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to ask a question. It is based on a friend's experience and watching him struggle. He's been taking weekly lessons with a local pro for quite a while. Same problem as you.

Can you whistle with a normal pucker? Every time I hear problems like this, I ask the same question. Please indulge my curiosity. Thanks.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject: 35 year old Reply with quote

Hello all,
98% of trumpet playing is below C above the staff...It is what you can do with the notes you have. I don't believe everybody can have a range in excess of the high G/double A. If you want to prove me wrong on your dime, I would happily be your experiment. Is it in my head??? Probably. There has been a few times when I have been able to blister a G and then squeak a G# and A, but never really in performance with reliability. I think if you optimize your equipment for what ever genre you play and keep up with a routine, you can stabilize at a level. A guru might enlighten you with a couple more notes, but at what cost? I feel lucky to have gotten to a point in my playing, where I am happy for what I can do, accept what I can't and am able to live with the difference. Hi, my name is Chris...and I play trumpet
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 35 year old Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello all,
98% of trumpet playing is below C above the staff...It is what you can do with the notes you have. I don't believe everybody can have a range in excess of the high G/double A. If you want to prove me wrong on your dime, I would happily be your experiment. Is it in my head??? Probably. There has been a few times when I have been able to blister a G and then squeak a G# and A, but never really in performance with reliability. I think if you optimize your equipment for what ever genre you play and keep up with a routine, you can stabilize at a level. A guru might enlighten you with a couple more notes, but at what cost? I feel lucky to have gotten to a point in my playing, where I am happy for what I can do, accept what I can't and am able to live with the difference. Hi, my name is Chris...and I play trumpet
This may be true, but not really relevant to this thread.

The OP has problems with the a just above the staff.
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swingtime
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for all the replies, what a lovely bunch of people you are! You’ve given me food for thought, and it’s comforting to hear that I’m not alone. So many of the really solid players have just had that magic ‘thing’ with little effort from the start, so I don’t think they’re the best at understanding the problems others have. And there’s loads of well-meant advice online but the ‘feeling’ of playing the trumpet well must be impossible to describe to others as it’s always in vague terms about speed of air, etc. which are very hard to put into practice - interpreting such advice, one is always left wondering, ‘Is this what they mean? Or this?’ I’ll look into getting a Skype lesson, but I’m not optimistic about the benefits of long-distance teaching.

And yes, I can whistle like a happy postman all day long
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading this forum you sometimes get the impression that everyone can play some in the 4th ledger line G to double C range. In my personal experience, very few players play well above 2nd ledger line C very well or for long. A few I know can manage an E and F sometimes pretty well. A few can play up to F but not reliably or sounding reliably good. To be clear, I'm not talking in the practice room or during warmup but in rehearsal/performance.

If I had a reliable D with a sometimes E and F it would be a revelation.

And the most I can manage is a weak whistle with my lips rolled out quite a bit.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swingtime wrote:
Thanks so much for all the replies, what a lovely bunch of people you are! You’ve given me food for thought, and it’s comforting to hear that I’m not alone. So many of the really solid players have just had that magic ‘thing’ with little effort from the start, so I don’t think they’re the best at understanding the problems others have. And there’s loads of well-meant advice online but the ‘feeling’ of playing the trumpet well must be impossible to describe to others as it’s always in vague terms about speed of air, etc. which are very hard to put into practice - interpreting such advice, one is always left wondering, ‘Is this what they mean? Or this?’ I’ll look into getting a Skype lesson, but I’m not optimistic about the benefits of long-distance teaching.

And yes, I can whistle like a happy postman all day long


Highly recommended is this method and book:

http://johndanieltrumpet.com/

Using his method will fix many faults that have plagued us for years. I asked the whistle question because being able to means already having the foundation for using the tongue to focus air and shape the notes.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have problems if you skip to trying the B above the first ledger line? What about trying to play the first ledger A with the third valve?

It is possible that you have a issue with your horn. Perhaps the first or second valve is slightly out of alignment.

I had an issue on my Bb where I simply could not play the second ledger D. I could play C and E but not D. I had the horn with me on a visit to Omaha and stopped in at Thompson music to consult with Mike. He listened to me and could tell that the horn was playing flat in the upper partials. He and I tried a Stomvi sleeved mouthpiece to dial in the gap and now that note is reliable.

If I were you I would take a few easy steps to rule out the horn. Perhaps trying out another horn. Or another mouthpiece. You can increase the gap by wrapping scotch tape around the shank.

Good luck.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it ain't just trumpet. people would always say that everyone works hard and the key is to work smart. the trumpet is enough of a devil that you have to up that game and not just be smart, but wise and intuitive, then you can work your way through the maze.
one thing that will vastly help is to have confidence that you can get through the maze. life is not for sissies.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Reading this forum you sometimes get the impression that everyone can play some in the 4th ledger line G to double C range. In my personal experience, very few players play well above 2nd ledger line C very well or for long. A few I know can manage an E and F sometimes pretty well. A few can play up to F but not reliably or sounding reliably good. To be clear, I'm not talking in the practice room or during warmup but in rehearsal/performance.

If I had a reliable D with a sometimes E and F it would be a revelation.

And the most I can manage is a weak whistle with my lips rolled out quite a bit.
+1
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
I'm going to ask a question. It is based on a friend's experience and watching him struggle. He's been taking weekly lessons with a local pro for quite a while. Same problem as you.

Can you whistle with a normal pucker? Every time I hear problems like this, I ask the same question. Please indulge my curiosity. Thanks.


I'm not sure why you asked whether the player can whistle with a normal pucker. I don't think there's any correlation between ability to whistle and ability to play, and/or ability to play the upper register, and I am evidence of that. I can barely whistle, with about a half octave of whistling range and my tone when whistling is about 10% sound and 90% air. Interestingly, I can whistle better if I suck air in while whistling. But when it comes to normal blowing for all intents and purposes I cannot whistle. But I can play trumpet rather well and have a performance register up to an easy and reliable G above High C (that performance range was up to DHC when I practiced regularly).

EDIT: Just saw this:

Richard III wrote:
I asked the whistle question because being able to means already having the foundation for using the tongue to focus air and shape the notes.


Yes, that makes sense - if one can whistle well and has some range when whistling it would mean that the person is employing good tongue arch habits (when whistling). And they can use that to improve their trumpet playing by emulating and developing similar good tongue arch in their playing. Just note that if someone cannot whistle, that doesn't mean they aren't arching their tongue properly when playing. As I wrote, I cannot whistle (when blowing) but I clearly am using my tongue arch properly when playing. In my case, my lack of being able to whistle while blowing yet being able to whistle fairly well when sucking is due to the particular shape of my oral cavity.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Reading this forum you sometimes get the impression that everyone can play some in the 4th ledger line G to double C range. In my personal experience, very few players play well above 2nd ledger line C very well or for long. A few I know can manage an E and F sometimes pretty well. A few can play up to F but not reliably or sounding reliably good. To be clear, I'm not talking in the practice room or during warmup but in rehearsal/performance.

If I had a reliable D with a sometimes E and F it would be a revelation.

And the most I can manage is a weak whistle with my lips rolled out quite a bit.


I could help you get there. I've done it before, many times.

Cheers,

John
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, that makes sense - if one can whistle well and has some range when whistling it would mean that the person is employing good tongue arch habits (when whistling). And they can use that to improve their trumpet playing by emulating and developing similar good tongue arch in their playing. Just note that if someone cannot whistle, that doesn't mean they aren't arching their tongue properly when playing.


Yup. I've noticed the non-whistlers have more issues. I know someone who can't get his tongue involved at all and totally depends on aperture control. He really struggles. And yes, he's a smile through teeth style of whistler.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sincerely feel your pain. I have a passion for jazz improv and have a good feel. But I always struggled with range, power, and endurance. After my undergraduate studies, I worked diligently for many years on both the Claude Gordon and Don Reinhardt paths. Unfortunately, they only made things worse.

Fortunately, I stumbled upon Jerry Callet during a mouthpiece search. He taught me how to play the trumpet (without the trumpet playing me). I now work with dozens of college trumpet majors every year. I continuously see the same old problems I struggled with. It's not about squeeze the lips. It's not about blow harder. It's not about whistling with your tongue. If it was, you'd already be there.

You are now where I once was. Bite the bullet and try something new. Deep down, you know you need to change your approach. Best wishes, Kyle
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard the squeaky toy squeaker in the pipe works too. Seriously if you play the notes in the staff well enough no one will notice😉. I hate to mention mouthpiece , but are you playing a thin rim, this can certainly cut endurance on an otherwise good player, as can pressure with any MP.

No matter what you do, playingneffecientlynwill help your endurance.
Rod
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deleted_user_680e93b
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Swingtime,
I was in the exact same place as you for years, both before i quit playing for 25 plus years and right after i started to play again. i doesn't surprise me at all that you have the same issues you had when you were younger, because most likely you are playing in the same physical manner that you did in the past, even after years off the horn, the old habits came right back because they we're familiar to you. It only stands to reason that the same results would come from that. Expecting a different result really isn't logical if you really think about it. when i started to play again after all those years off i went back to the same mouthpiece i used in college which was too big for me, doing the same things i did before and i redeveloped the same lack of range i had in college, which was a high C, using tons of pressure until the notes stop sounding because there wasn't any vibration left. my teacher, A great player and a julliard instructor, kept telling me the range would come, "you have a great sound", keep doing what your doing. I was technically proficient to high C. but i feared that note. the range never came and i quit out of frustration. The changes came when i decided to change everything i was doing and follow a different approach, I received a lot of great advice from trumpeter Keith Fiala, as well as good advice from John Mohan about things like tongue level, I gleaned the web and found Greg Spence's Mystery to mastery website and a lot of what he was saying made real sense. I asked Willie Murillo about playing high and he gave me some great advice, I discovered that i could play a really small mouthpiece and not give up the sound quality, i discovered that it hardly takes any air at all to play in the upper register, i discovered the bill adam forum and have never looked back, I play in R&B bands locally and High c is a joke now, it feels the same as C in the staff. the point of all these words are that you can absolutely play higher and with plenty of endurance but you must be willing to try a different approach because obviously what you have done in the past isn't working. consider a much smaller mouthpiece, I play curry's in the 00 size, that's small, consider a different setup, for instance using more bottom lip, or more top lip, you have to find the balance. lots of people say it is easy to play high if you know how, it is when you figure it out, or when you discover the "knack" for playing high notes, that's from John mohan, thats not my quote. I very rarely need to play above high E's in my bands, But i play higher than that in my routine i do every day. But after learning the "knack" i can literally not play for weeks and still get thru gigs and play my adam routine up to the high F#s pretty easily. Do some research about mouthpieces, you will discover that a very small mouthpiece like a 00M with a 30 drill can make playing low notes easier as well. Thats not my main piece, btw, but it does peel paint of the wall, I'm a weekend warrior and not a pro like Kieth fiala, or john mohan or charlie porter or willie Murillo, i'm not a chop doc like Pops, But i asked questions from these people and they usually answered me and it made me think about it a lot. Tiny mouthpieces may not be your answer but its a question in the making don't you think, that's the first step, question everything, check out the Bill Adam Forum if you haven't already, Make the lead pipe vibrate the Adam way and you may discover how easy it really is to play all over the horn. Email the pros. It has been my discovery that they will answer you and care enough to give you positive feedback.

good Luck,

tom
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