35-year range and endurance plateau. Help?

[Brad361]

[Robert P]

Having never seen or heard you play and knowing nothing about your particular setup I don't want to make any definitive statements about what is or isn't possible for you but I can tell you I was someone who had severe chops dysfunctionality for a long time. Anything over about a top line F was a question mark - sometimes I could get up to high C, D but it was nothing I could count on. Nothing above the staff ever felt secure and anchored. The mouthpiece never really felt like it "fit" on my lips.

After a lot of analysis and changing how I do things as well as having my front upper incisors altered, I can reliably nail an Ab over high C and double C's are coming out with more and more regularity. If anyone had ever told me that someday F, G and Ab over high C would be no big deal I would have thought they were nuts - it would have been absolutely inconceivable to me back when. It wasn't a matter of pedal tones, free-buzzing or endless hours spent on a particular routine - it was finding the right mechanics.

I don't have ideal features to play trumpet but I found a way to make it work. It's a continuing work in progress. I'm a much stronger player now than my friend who was always the "natural" who didn't experience any of the frustration and struggles I did.

I'd say there's a definite possibility you just need to find the key to making it work.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel

[Qnaza]

Hi OP, mate, your story is my story minus a few details. If it's any consolation, you're not the only one.

I'll give a big +1 for looking into Greg Spence's stuff.

Also, the 'Just keep practicing and it'll come' stuff can be so much BS. I know this from experience and years of frustration. And it's not even like I've got it all sorted and I'm dispensing the wisdom of my experience from my cloud of super-high-Cs. My music degree university teacher's guidance, well-meaning as it was from his side, led to me developing focal dystonia and any dreams of a musical career went south. My relationship with trumpet for the last 20 years has been love/hate and fraught with frustration and only a few high points, but it has been so much a part of me since I was about 8 or 9, not playing it leaves a hole inside me.

So, in my experience, having come from a very similar scenario to the OP, if what one is doing isn't efficient, keeping doing it isn't smart. It took me a long time to forgive that expert teacher who encouraged me to just 'keep practicing', because I know that he was just teaching as he had been taught, and he was blessed to be a natural player who literally did just have to keep playing and he just got better.

I needed a teacher who knew how to show me the smart way to play, and then my diligent practice would have truly been rewarded. Thing is though, I blamed myself for years, because I DID WHAT I WAS TOLD and believe me, I did it a LOT! And it DIDN'T WORK!!!!!''

I found a lot of real gold in Greg Spence's tutorials on YouTube, and also attending a session he did in London a few years ago. He's all about efficiency and working smart, not hard (something I really believe in, in a culture where working hard and putting in tons of time and energy in whatever you do, seems to be the main measure that others use to gauge your success). What a genuine, lovely guy too. He took the time to reply to some of my emails with real detail and personal thought. He's a real gent.

The way I see it is in this metaphor: There's a door to be opened, and you're banging on it in various ways, looking for the method to open it, and the 'keep-practicing type teacher' sees your diligience and stubborn attitude of not giving up, praising you for that, giving you a sense of pride in the time, effort and energy you're expending, even though the door persists in staying shut. You keep doing it for years until you've no more energy to keep going with so few results, and if you're lucky, you chance on someone who can point out that there's a door-handle you just have to turn...

Now before I get flamed out of every trumpet forum, yes, that metaphor is really simplistic and no, I learnt from experience that there's no pill or little switch to suddenly be able to do what you are practicing. But there is something of the masochist in trumpetters where achievement seems to be traditionally measured, at least in part, but how many ml of blood, sweat and tears it took to get to where we are. How many of us have proudly bragged how long we practiced, how sore our chops are, and all that, not what we achieved in the session? How many trumpetters (musicians even?) proudly say how little they practiced?

That's why I really liked Greg Spence, having gone through several teachers online and here in London, UK. Maybe I was just at the right place in my life and trumpet journey to be receptive to the concepts he explains, but whatever the reason, his approach and way of thinking about playing and performing really resonated with me.

Good luck, Swingtime. The main reason I decided to reply to this thread was more to let you know that you're not alone, but as I type this now, I have to thank you for posting because there are many, many out there like us and I, for one, do feel better knowing that I'm not the only one! Good luck to all of us working to achieve those personal dreams!

[BGinNJ]

I can relate to the frustration and disappointment in the OP's story, and I suppose many other players, not just of the trumpet, have struggled with their limitations.

I have to wonder how and why, if trumpet was such a struggle, you pursued a jazz studies degree? Of course it's all in the past, but it seems to me your college did you a disservice.

Jazz and trumpet in particular are hard enough, some of the lessons like the one described can be bruising to the ego. The good news is, in this Internet age there's never been a better time to learn the right way (for you) to play the trumpet.

I used to practice a lot, a little, all the usual prescribed stuff, and I'd reach a certain plateau and that was it. Not much stamina, or high range I could really use. I couldn't find a teacher or playing opportunities to help me improve. Eventually, though, I found a chop teacher online, and his approach made a lot of sense to me. It's taken a few years, with some backsliding and layoffs along the way, but playing is more satisfying and less limiting than it used to be. It can be done.

[Dark Knight]

We have a similar background. I was at the exact same point and equally frustrated about a year ago. I came back after a 35-years. After playing and having lessons for about 5 years and could not manages a simple arpeggio from middle C to high C. Terrified of anything above the stave in the repertoire. After one year with John Mohan, on a regular practice I top out at F. Within 6 months, I had a solo part that had a high C and nailed in concert.

I agree with the phrase, "practice and it will come." But, I do say practice and it will come IF you have the right guidance. Three hours of practice a day does not guarantee progress. What you need is a very detailed plan with a good teacher.

DK
_________________
I learn from my mistakes. I can repeat them perfectly every time.

[Rod Haney]

Run to the Greg Spense website Windworks https://mysterytomastery.com/windworks-pricing/
And try the free demo. If you are able to just try the exercises without preconception u will see some things actually work much differently than are commonly believed. I love it and my playing is improving at a rate I didn’t think it could at my age. I think it might be what you are looking for.
Rod

[Qnaza]

[Don Herman rev2]

An English soccer coach whose name I've forgotten said "Practice does not make perfect; practice makes permanent." Be careful what you make permanent.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[Mmmatt]

Swingtime, odd question for you. Does air ever come out your nose when you try to play in the upper register? Plug your nose and see if you feel pressure build up. Not saying I have a fix, but that was always a problem for me. Seemed that pressure built up and whatever sinus port separated my mouth from my nose would break down and I would lose pressure. When I left the trumpet 30 years ago it was around double C that was happening, but now in my comeback I’m noticing it at a a high C. My senior year in hs I switched to a larger mouthpiece with a larger throat and a large bore horn, and my range improved. I assumed this to be due to less resistance. I try to focus on opening my throat and focusing pressure through the mouthpiece, but it is a struggle. My college instructor never had an answer for me and I often wondered if it was a physical imparement of sorts. That was one of the frustrations that made me hang it up.

Matt
_________________
1965 Getzen Severinsen
1929 Holton Llewellyn
1972ish Rudy Mück Citation
1969 Reynolds Emperor Flugelhorn
1956 Olds Recording

[MF Fan]

I revisited this series of videos on YouTube recently, and I think it's right on target for the challenge you're facing. Watch all five installments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXuezlHcYw

Another guy associated with Stomvi that has done an excellent series of videos about the physical aspects of playing trumpet is Jon Ruff. Check out his stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips

Finally, I've personally found that dental structure can play a very large role in a person's innate range, flexibility, and endurance. Some guys win the lottery and it's easy from day one, after which they leverage their advantage through constructive practice. Others are born with set-ups that make it very difficult, and no amount of practice seems to lead to a break through. Granted, studying under a qualified teacher can help you along, but in the case of some dental structures, progress is capped until a change is made. It may be as simple as experimenting by moving the mouthpiece to different spots on your mouth where the underlying structure is conducive to free vibration, usually where there's a ridge or high-spot. It's controversial, but some have gone as far as having their teeth altered to enable performance. I've made minor tweaks myself over the years and can attest to it as a legitimate approach, and has been the key for some.
_________________
MF Fan
__________
L.A. Benge 5x
Holton MF3
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra

[Pops]

[Nikoloas17]

I'd say you would have a very hard time going wrong with Pops, he knows his stuff, and has an immense amount of success in teaching students how to succeed in their playing. You might take him up on his offer, and see how that goes for you. Just my suggestion, take it for what its worth.
_________________
Horns:
1994 Bach Stradivarius 43LR
Lidl Brno Bb Rotary Trumpet
Lidl Brno Bb Rotary Flugelhorn
Benge 5 Piccolo Trumpet
Mouthpieces:
Marcinkiewicz 6/10.5C
Monette B2
Monette B6LVS1
Yamaha 14E4
Yamaha 14F4

[Oldmanwithahorn]

I can relate to all those who have posted about their range and endurance problems - I'm there. Way back in the Stone Age when I took up the trumpet I was taught to press my lips together and smile while buzzing the mouthpiece. Needless to say, as one matures as a player and expands his/her range requirements, this approach will generally lead to a rather strong left arm as we require more and more upper range ability. I have now reached the point in my age where my embouchure is losing the ability to withstand the pressure required and my range and endurance are fading.
With that in mind, I have begun the arduous task of re-inventing my embouchure. Given the years of muscle memory and habit that I must overcome, it is a daunting task with no assured success at the end but, being a hard-headed trumpet player (and Marine) I will give it my best try.

Now, my question: in my internet search for answers I have come across three (there are more) methods that seem to be somewhat in conflict with each other and all have many testimonials, etc as to their efficacy. One is Greg Spence's "Mystery to Mastery" (which I have joined) and another is the "Stevens-Costello Embouchure Technique" in the Roy Stevens book - Embouchure Self-Analysis. The third book is by Jeff Smiley titled "The Balanced Embouchure". I'm looking for opinions about these three methods as to success and efficiency.

By the way I'd be happy to have a good strong E or F above high C (even a nice full sounding D would make me happy. Endurance to play lead for a three-hour (three sets) dance band gig. Thanks for reading this and chiming in with your opinions.
_________________
Bob (the old man with a horn)
Wild Thing trumpet
Yamaha Flugelhorn

[swingtime]

I’m really touched by all the replies here. So sorry I’ve been inactive here - just discovered that my notifications have been ending up in my junk mail folder. I appreciate all the helpful comments (and personal offers of help, wow).
If anyone’s still interested, here’s an update:
I stuck with the Al Cass piece for several more months. Flexibility studies got my range up to a relatively easy first D above the staff. Unfortunately, only in a ‘flexibility studies’ context - in normal, musical playing, G at the top of the staff was still the limit for reliable playing on fresh chops. Figure that one out if you can. I can’t.
In the end, I went back to a Yamaha 11c4-7C for the sake of sound and found to my relief that the gains made on the smaller piece didn’t disappear. So I’ve been building from there.
I’ve found single tonguing very helpful for making things more reliable. I can now staccato tongue scales up to the high D without much effort.
My current frustration (haha, here we go...) is that I thought an inctease in range would automatically lead to an increase in endurance. But no, it seems it don’t work that way...
I can’t even get through a whole ballad head. On All The Things You Are, for example, there’s a second-F-on-the-staff which is where my lips collapse every time. Similarly, I can’t get through a single Arban quarter note study without this collapsing. But if I give myself a bar’s rest, I can whack out a controlled C over the staff. So I think it’s about not being able to set my chops quickly enough after a breath. It feels like that’s the problem, anyway - like my lips just want another couple of beats to get ready. But I don’t know how to fix it.
So, to sum up: lots to be happy about, if I could just fix this endurance problem (which isn’t really an endurance problem as I still have plenty of fuel in the tank when it happens).
Again, I’m so sorry about not getting back to any of you, and I appreciate every single response.

[kalijah]

you wrote:

[Billy B]

Read the stickies on the Bill Adam thread then PM if you want more information.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=19
_________________
Bill Bergren

[RussellDDixon]

Post a video of your playing so our extensive panel of experts can chime in ...
_________________
Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece

[John Mohan]

[Pablopiccasso]

I struggled for years with range and endurance. It was just bad technique. Anyone could play high if they are willing and able to learn good technique. Lots of great tutors round who could take you through what you need to do.

Trumpeting should be fun, not a masochistic exercise

Get help.

I've been through your struggle, cut lips on gigs, etc etc.

It can be done. Charlie porter has some great YouTube explanations.