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Eclipse Celeste or Enigma or Taylor VR?


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richarddownunder
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Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Eclipse Celeste or Enigma or Taylor VR? Reply with quote

Hi, There is quite a bit of positive discussion about Eclipse trumpets on the net (in fact it's all positive!). I'm in the market for a new Bb (next year while in the UK) and am keen to try the Eclipse range and probably the Taylor VR. I wondered if anyone would care to comment on these two Eclipse models, how different are they to play? It seems the Celeste is the first choice go-to model and has been described as a Bach on steroids but having got a bit more used to a reverse lead pipe I wondered how the Enigma (and the Taylor VR for that matter) would stack up for general orchestra/concert band and some solo work - not so much jazz/big band, not so much high stuff coz I just can't do that! I guess I'm just hoping for some guidance on what to look out for as I'll have limited time to try them out (while travelling), just a day really, and will have to live with the consequences. I want this to be the last trumpet I'll buy! As a starter, I do find the free blowing trumpet I have currently more difficult to play/control quietly. Would the same apply to the Enigma versus the Celeste? Can you pick a deference between the Celeste and the CLS version? The Taylor VR is described as an all round instrument - has anyone got experience with this model they would care to share, especially versus the Eclipse models?

many thanks
Richard


Last edited by richarddownunder on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Eclipse Celeste or Enigma or Taylor VR? Reply with quote

richarddownunder wrote:
Would the same apply to the Enigma versus the Celeste? Can you pick a deference between the Celeste and the CLS version?


If you're looking at the CLS (changeable leadpipes) then the question of how much resistance is involved would be a question of which pipe you use, the difference is noticeable...
If we're just comparing a Celeste CLS (with the Celeste pipe in) against a standard Celeste (fixed pipe) then the difference is very minor indeed (assuming we're talking about the same bell) - but you've got that ability to put different pipes in if you choose the CLS.

Personally I prefer the Celeste (traditional) over the Enigma (reversed) but you'd just have to try them and see which you preferred - to add to the choices available, you've got different bell options on both models (medium yellow, large lightweight yellow, medium red, large red) which will also change things up a bit...

They're great horns and it's well worth spending a day there playing through some different combinations and seeing if anything really speaks to you.
It's well worth spending time over at Taylor too - for me it'd be an easy choice which to buy, but we're all different and that's why there are so many different brands offering different options and approaches.
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally I'd like to spend quite a bit of time but I'm travelling with little chance to test out and get a custom horn made so will have to go with what is available at the time. The Celeste CLS does seem to offer some ability to change the set up if I find it doesn't suit down the track. The bell choice does add an extra layer and the same with finishes. I prefer a silver finish so as that can brighten the sound, a MR bell might be best for a rich sound.

Cheers
Richard
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Sharkbaitboi
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are those trumpets?
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um...http://www.eclipsetrumpets.com/
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Sharkbaitboi
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richarddownunder wrote:
Um...http://www.eclipsetrumpets.com/


Oh cool. I thought those were french horns
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bringing my fairly extensive 2.5-year horn safari to a near close, I recently purchased a used Eclipse C trumpet and Enigma CLS B-flat trumpet, both rear-tuned and both about 10yo, from other TH members. I wanted something a little brighter in the B-flat sound, so I pursued getting a new one with a lightweight bell. Thus...

I just had a custom Enigma CLS LYL (Large Yellow brass Lightweight bell) made for me. The U.S. dealers were very helpful, giving me the initial info I needed, but ultimately, I wanted some customizations that lead me to working directly with Leigh McKinney. He was a perfect gentleman, sending me pictures of every build stage via Facebook Messenger. The horn is being plated now, so it should arrive in the States within the next 10-14 days.

I had played a horn in recent months (brand to remain anonymous) that had a lot of resonance, which was a very important feature for me, since my sound tends to be on the dark side of the spectrum. I had noticed that this horn did not have a brace from the 2nd valve casing to the bell and figured that that was a contributing factor. I requested that of Leigh in this build. He was hesitant at first, noting that he'd done repairs on many bells belonging to players due to their strong right arms jamming mutes quickly into the bell. Once I convinced him that I was super meticulous with my instruments, he agreed to proceed, albeit with trepidation.

In addition to a couple of other minor alterations (a 1st slide stop, and "tiny catch notches" on the sides of his already unique 2nd slide pull knob for the thin elastic string I use to secure the 3rd slide as an extra precaution from falling out while on a trumpet stand...ask me how I ever got to this place!), I also wanted a trigger put on the main slide (YES, it costs extra, and it isn't Leigh's favorite type of modification to do due to the time required). This meant a reverse tuning slide/leadpipe design (Enigma), which would help with maintaining as much compression as possible after the slide was lapped. (I've discussed my reasons for triggers at lengths in other TH threads, but in a nutshell, it has to do with the changes with mutes/mouthpieces/horns/temperature/humidity/organ stops and for altering the color/timbre. Yes, such a trigger is non-standard, but it works for me, professionally. I have them on several of my horns.) I also wanted the CLS option, so that I could alter the blow by changing the leadpipe. Normally, you can choose two with each Eclipse CLS, but I requested four (and YES, that is extra, but worth it to me with the variety of music that I play).

Leigh had a local UK pro come in and play test it the other day. The video Leigh sent me proved that we struck gold! That pro normally does not prefer reverse leadpipes, but very much liked the blow/response/resonance of my horn, even with the slightly added mass of the trigger. Leigh then pointed out to him the missing brace.

Like one UK music store owner told me a couple of months ago, I also believe that Leigh McKinney is a genius. I think he has really uncovered some design secrets that make the response (even at very soft dynamics), and the intonation on his horns, absolutely incredible. There is also a lot of room to vary the sound, pending mouthpiece used and blow of the individual player. I'm looking forward to saving $$ toward the purchase of a C and a piccolo within the next couple of years. The C has undergone internal improvements (although the one I have is great!), and he is putting his piccolo through a redesign now that he hopes to launch by next summer (2019). My hope is that he will someday find time to design and build a 4-valve E-flat and a 4-valve flugelhorn! Oh, he told me today that he took nine horns to the plater and will be taking five more tomorrow, so business is booming for Eclipse right now!


Last edited by dstpt on Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own 2 Eclipse enigmas and lots of other horns including a Taylor Flumpet. I did quite the horn safari and still have about 6-7 others 🤪 the eclipse are by far the best horns I’ve owned or played. I have a bell tuned and a silver bell horn with the reverse leadpipe. The bell crook tuned is very free blowing and a great horn, the silver horn is Leigh’s latest Bb tech and is just at the top in every area, as is his craftsmanship and his customer service. Taylor’s generally are heavier horns, good horns with good valves and very good bells. I prefer Leigh’s Bbs because the sound I get on them fits my sound concept of what a trumpet should sound like, Taylor trumpets were somewhat deeper to me. See Leigh if you can, if you go to his shop and try what he has, and you want something different it’s probably a Taylor. Enigma is best IMO but Celeste CLS is a huge bargain and a good buy. I would definitely try all Bell options, both my horns have a rimless bell (solar) and these are monsters if you like loud and high, but I liked all I tried, and the silver bell was in fact rolled by Taylor. You can’t go wrong on either horn. The Taylors often hit the used market in quite good shape and the eclipse less so, at least in US. Both are handmade horns by custom makers and you can and should expect their workmanship to be above mass makers doing many thousand horns a year. This is why I think the Celeste CLE is such a great buy, and if I had not just had to build my dream horn it’s what I would have bought when I went to 17’ ITG.
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
The Taylors often hit the used market in quite good shape and the eclipse less so, at least in US.


Thanks for the comments. So, does this observation suggest that the Eclipses get played more or the Taylors are more robust? In any case, from these and other comments, sounds like I can't go wrong with an Eclipse.

Cheers
Richard
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion only, but heavy horns don’t seem as popular these days, but I know nada about the classical world. You see almost no eclipse on market, maybe people realize what they have and keep them. He also has different weight bells light to med. heavy - he also lets you change out leadpipe with him until you find the 2-3 you like. If you meet Leigh you will probably buy from him.
Rod
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
My opinion only, but heavy horns don’t seem as popular these days, but I know nada about the classical world. You see almost no eclipse on market, maybe people realize what they have and keep them. He also has different weight bells light to med. heavy - he also lets you change out leadpipe with him until you find the 2-3 you like. If you meet Leigh you will probably buy from him.
Rod


The info on the Taylor website suggests the VR is a more 'traditional' design trumpet. It certainly looks very pretty ! This is what they say...
Its an all round, use anywhere, in any situation trumpet.
Its not to heavy. Its superbly balanced and very focused.
Its free-blowing, easy to play with no vices.
Its got plenty of power, it can be subtle, it can cut and it can blend in a section.
Its an ML (.460”) Bore, so it’ll feel familiar to most players very quickly.
Its got the same fast, quiet, silky valve section as all the other Chicago models.
Cheers
Richard
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stumac
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard,
if you ever come across to Melbourne you are most welcome to play my Eclipse MS with 5 leadpipes and Taylor Chicago 46 Magnum Max, at 4 lbs the heaviest horn I have played.

July 2008 I had 4 days in London, contacted Leigh on Tuesday explaining I would be going back to Australia on Friday, he was just back from summer holidays and no stock but if I could come up on Thursday he would have 3 put together for me to try, he picked me up at the station and drove to the factory, I spent about 3 hours playing the horns with different combinations of leadpipes. Leigh could tell from a separate room which was my favorite, I ordered and he drove me back to the station. 2 months later the horn arrived, extremely happy with it.

In 2 visits to England I was not able to visit Andy Taylor, I am sure if I had I would have purchased a horn from him.

Regards, Stuart.


Last edited by stumac on Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
...I just had a custom Enigma CLS LYL (Large Yellow brass Lightweight bell) made for me.

Here is the horn in raw brass. Again, Leigh should get it back from the plater in the next day or so...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2eeqoxsufc3mz6/Eclipse%20Enigma-2018-01.jpg?dl=0

Leigh recently made the 3rd (and here, 1st) slide stop on his horns to look like a miniature mouthpiece. Pretty cool.
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the offer Stumac. Dstpt - that is an interesting arrangement! Never seen that before. I'll pop in on Leigh, try some out and, all going well, get it plated as I can go back briefly after a couple of weeks to pick it up.

Cheers
Richard
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
...I just had a custom Enigma CLS LYL (Large Yellow brass Lightweight bell) made for me.

Leigh got the horn back from the plater today. Below are some of the pics. The first pic is of the horn in raw brass (a repeated link from my prior post above for ease of reference).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2eeqoxsufc3mz6/Eclipse%20Enigma-2018-01.jpg?dl=0

The next pic is of the horn with “bungs” that are used to keep the silver from being plated where you don’t want it (i.e. inside the valves, “outer” leadpipe, slides, et al…). I've always wondered what was used for this part of the process and have never actually seen pictures of these until now.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/li7wk49xco4es65/Eclipse%20Enigma-2018-07.jpg?dl=0

The final three pics are of the horn completed. Leigh said that the 24K gold plate is not justified in these pictures, btw, but is much more vibrant when viewing in person! (Again, notice no brace from the 2nd valve casing to the bell in the 2nd picture...a custom request to add resonance.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rufgw482ixojjj/Eclipse%20Enigma-2018-04.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9uzo2jn7ea59vrb/Eclipse%20Enigma-2018-05.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gi5po15hvjcz1gh/Eclipse%20Enigma-2018-06.jpg?dl=0

He is still waiting on the changeable leadpipes to be finished at the plater and normally ships only on Tuesdays and Fridays, which are days of the week that he gets a slight rate cut in shipping as his regularly-scheduled days to ship outside the U.K.

I guess I'll have to drool over these pictures for the next 10-12 days until the horn arrives!
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks great, you'll be keen to get your hands on that! I'd also wondered how they were set-up for plating.

Cheers
Richard
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we're on the topic of CUSTOM Eclipse porn, I'll share...

(This is one of my sop cornets, with some custom touches and custom two-tone lacquer job):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9w236ym2m9uslg1/FB_IMG_1540395149602.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ru7z6ye68npujp/FB_IMG_1540395137173.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bsimipu647h8bxb/FB_IMG_1540395132801.jpg?dl=0
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks too pretty to use really. How do you keep the lacquer looking so good? My B&S lacquer is showing signs of problems after a few months so I vowed to get silver next time.
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richarddownunder
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Leigh said that the 24K gold plate is not justified in these pictures, btw, but is much more vibrant when viewing in person! (Again, notice no brace from the 2nd valve casing to the bell in the 2nd picture...a custom request to add resonance.)


As a matter of interest, does the gold plating add significantly to the cost? The 2-tone certainly looks nice.
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stumac
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 2008 the full gold plate on my MS was an extra 500 English pounds, since then the gold price has increased considerably. Platers now seem to quote on the spot price of gold.

Regards, Stuart.
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