Help? Clanking valve tops in vintage King Libertys x2

CartersPop

I have two vintage silver King Liberty trumpets, one a 1915 and the other a 1922. Both have Y-shaped brass valve guides that slide up three slots from below the top springs, when the buttons are pushed. No problems there really, but when the buttons are released there is a clicking or clanking of the guides as they slide down their slots in the metal sleeve surrounding the springs back to resting position. It is virtually every valve push for all three valves on each horn. I have replaced molded and rotten thin corks with slightly thicker synthetic felts around the stems of the valve buttons beneath the top caps without improvement, although the action did return to a nicer feel after the swaps. Springs appear old if not frankly original but still have good tension.

It is clear that it is when the button rises back to its top (rest) position under spring tension that the clicking occurs and seems to come from the bottom of the metal spring sleeves when the valve guides hit bottom of their slots on the return to their bottom rest position. The guides kinda make a slightly scratchy metal on metal scrape sometimes when it happens too --I think from the guides scraping down the somewhat sharp edged slots in the spring sleeve. Am I missing some other pad that is supposed to be on the bottom of all 6 valves guides? Should I look to replace the original metal guides with a nylon or similar quieter fitting instead? Is there a safe, simple and quick fix to the problem (preferably without buggering up the otherwise perfectly working actions)?

If no help forthcoming I will post a couple pics of the specific layout of of the hardware tomorrow to see if that might prompt some ideas or known solutions. But other than the Y-shaped guides and three slots in the sleeves it is pretty much standard mechanicals in this area. Thanks

jeff
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Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

Justice · Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject:

Have you tried putting heavy grease on the threads of the upper caps?
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Bach Strad MLV 44 65
Bach Strad 238 CL
NY Bach 37 M
Courtois Pic
1924 Couesnon Flugel
'69 Conn 8b Lightweight Artist
'48 Holton 48

Sharkbaitboi · Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:05 pm Post subject:

Gun oil mixed with blue juice and hetman 1/2/3

CartersPop · Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:37 am Post subject:

Thanks for the ideas guys. Not sure I have either of the concoctions you describe but I guess I could try some general lubes in the area to see if it helps, although that is not typically a spot I would expect to need to be lubing. That is a part of the horn I usually try to keep free of slop and glop as part of general tidy upkeep. Will give it a run though.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

JoeLoeffler · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243

If I understand you correctly, the top of the valve is hitting the guide when it returns to the parked/“up” position? One of two things is happening. 1: someone has not installed the correct thickness of upstroke pads. 2: someone has done a valve job and added plating to the valves without trimming the top of the piston to allow for the plating growth.

Are you sure you have enough alignment pad material in the upstroke? Have you looked? (Camera, angled mirror, look down third slide tube and over to the second casing...)

LittleRusty

CartersPop · Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:20 pm Post subject:

OK guys thanks for the help so far. I did another breakdown and took the below photo of an intact and a broken down valve:

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Pardon the dirty horn, but I want to work out the bugs before I put her through the whole clean up fix up buff up routine.

First, I did try some light lubing along the rails that the brass guide runs in and got no change. I flipped the guides over in case they are side specific and might have been upside down. I verified that there was no upstroke strike under the caps from too little padding with the new felts.

Then I pulled the springs and figured that since at least one did not match the other two in my newest horn (King Liberty), and since all three were fairly scaled up on their surfaces, that the problem might indeed be "end of travel bounce" from too old and too soft springs not holding things together at the finish. The more I fiddled with it the more I think that this is the problem.

Now I want to make sure I get sturdy enough springs to defeat the problem for time immemorial not just for this horn but at least a couple more of my other babies. I am a masher with big heavy hands so I would rather go sturdy than soft on the springs. J L Smith has some similar sized brass light looking replacements for $0.43 each plus shipping (about $18 for 5 or 6 full sets) but they seem to be generic. I was considering paying $8 shipped for one set of 3 good brass Yamahas for maybe just this one horn to make sure that fixes the problem in a way I like. Anybody have experience with the JL Smith springs or in using Yamahas in a non-proprietary setting like this? If I go with Yamahas for this and it works, I will need to repeat it for my other Liberty with the same problem. Then I will likely want to update any other horns of similar vintage that I already have or which sneak in the back door (my dad's old 1922 New Wonder, my 22B, another 1935 New Wonder I have my eye on tomorrow, ....). That could get expensive after 5 or six horns for the Yamahas over the JLSmiths.

Hopefully we can get this cleared up in the next week or two so I can get on with the joy of horn resurrection. Thanks again.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

LittleRusty · Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject:

Not all springs are the same. The length, diameter and strength can all vary from horn to horn.

Hopefully one of our contributing techs or another expert can point you towards the appropriate springs.

CartersPop · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:14 pm Post subject:

No hits back from anybody about any issues using either with Yamaha springs or the generics from JLSMITH. They do have the correct size, and the Yamahas fit too. Just do not know about the tension/resistance of a spring til it is in.

I did swap out a spring from a CONN 22B (1920's vintage horn at least) that seemed a bit more lively and plugged it in but did not really get much of a different feel or clear fix of the clank when the piston rises at the end. Probably need to get new ones instead.

I did get a reasonably quiet movement by double felting the valve tops under the top caps, but that restricted the full rise of the valves throwing off the alignment and starting me down the stuffy road we do not wish to travel. So then I cut back to 1.5 felts and back comes the clank again. Oh well.

I will get some new springs and put them in, and hope for a cheap and quick fix. I did have one thought of a jerry-rig I might try but am a little embarrassed so I will try it first and if it works share then.

Thanks again folks.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

jvand678 · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:29 pm Post subject:

It looks like the valve stems have lines on them. Based on what I can see from the pics, there isn't enough felt to be in alignment on the upstroke. As such, clankety clank....
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Joe Vandiver

CartersPop · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:35 pm Post subject:

Abraxas · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject:

If other than all three are giving you problems, it is of course a useful exercise to move the stems and springs from one valve to another to first isolate whether the stems or the valves are the problem. See if the problem follows stem or stays with the valve. When you slowly depress each valve take note whether you can feel the vibration in the button of something scraping in the stroke. If so , I had a problem where the springs looked OK but in fact, during the process of compression were bulging out and scraping against the valve. You would never see it happening but you can feel that scraping in the stem as you work it. There's a seller 1469music on Ebay that sells rebuild sets...you get springs, felts, corks specific to make and model and I have been quite happy with his affordable sets. Fast shipping too.

jvand678 · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject:

Abraxas · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:54 pm Post subject:

Yes I see the lines also. If you are not sure what lines we speak of, look at the long small diameter of stem, the part that passes through the top valve caps. About half way along the length of that stem, you will see a fine groove machined around the entire diameter of the stem. That line should just barely come even with the top of the valve cap, when everything is tight and the valve is up to the top. That is why they machined the groove.

I think Joe, in his post above, meant 0.060 or 1/16 inch to go (not 0.60).

CartersPop · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:16 pm Post subject:

Now I see the line in mid stem. The valve caps are the older "nippled" style where the nipple gets recessed into the holow button bottom when the button is depressed. I will look at the re-assembled valve stems tomorrow. Thanks guys. Hopefully cheap and easy.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

jvand678 · Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:46 am Post subject:

scottfsmith · Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:24 am Post subject:

If there is not enough felt on the top they can be bottoming out: the Y brace at the bottom of the spring is hitting the bottom of the valve when its all the way up. It should get close to the bottom, but not actually touch. I would add a small felt shim to the thick red one already there to see if that fixes it without messing up the alignment too much. You also may be able to get some more travel there, e.g. there could be some gunk at the bottom there or the Y is upside-down, either one causing it to bottom out earlier than it should be.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:34 am Post subject:

You can take out the second valve crook and observe the port alignments to help dial in the appropriate felt thickness.

CartersPop · Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:25 am Post subject:

Well got the older and nicer one silenced with an extra mm felt on top of each and the alignment line is just hidden below valve cap top. The more recent acquisition now has two felts, is hiding the lines, but still has some clank at topping out after release. And alignment is pretty square at #2. I may look for some additional cork to shim with as my felts are getting too thick for fine adjustment. I already made sure the valve guides were not flipped, first thing I looked at. Getting closer. Thanks guys.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

CartersPop · Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:13 am Post subject:

Bingo. Swapped out the springs for much livelier and newer Yamahas from another horn in the office right now, much quicker and definitive action in both directions. Original valve springs were mismatched and definitely smaller guage wire than these. Recommend.

Also adjusted the lash on the valves with a few very thin additional felts, even though the guidance line was already not visible under the valve cap. That killed the last bit of any rattle or clank there was. Voila'. Will recheck valve adjustment later.

Unfortunately no time to enjoy the new feel as I have to get back to work.

Thanks again.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari