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amarokmclion
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Posts: 13
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 Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: Difficulties in recognizing the right sound |
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Hi all,
I'm am a comeback player. I've stopped for a few years and now I'm trying to get on the right track again. I've got a teacher, I'm trying to setup a good practice routine etc.. One of the biggest problems I'm facing is with the sound I'm producing (I guess like everyone else) but I'm having problems in recognizing the correct sound.
With my teaching we're trying to rebuild the fundamentals and we're targeting the classical fat and round legit sound. The problem is that my ears are having an hard time to understand when I'm getting it right and while not... It's like my always getting far away from this ideal sound without even noticing. Always going for a more flimsy sound.
I'm wondering if anyone had the same issue and how did they fix it? Right now I'm hearing a lot of legit symphonic stuff even thou I'm not really into it, I'm more into jazzy stuff. |
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WxJeff
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 2484
Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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This should prove to be an interesting thread. Thanks for asking the question.
My first inclination of a response, without knowing your previous playing background, is to question your teacher's recommendation of pursuing "the classical fat and round legit sound." Why? Perhaps that's closest to the "core sound" which we have discussed in the Fundamentals forum and elsewhere.
Lots of variables, obviously, to how we perceive our sound. We're always "behind the speaker." The room and its acoustics, how we are feeling physically, whether we're playing with a group and/or electronic accompaniment add to the mix.
I'm back at about 15 years now after a long break from my mediocre high school playing, so I'm happy to make what I consider a decent sound, without worrying about to which genre of music it is most applicable.
These days I occasionally sub for a 1st trumpet player in a 15 member church orchestra. It's a great sanctuary acoustically so I never have problems with the sound ringing out nice and fat, as long as I'm focusing on the air and the embouchure.
Best wishes in your efforts and I look forward to some elaboration on what has led you towards pursuit of this particular goal. |
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amarokmclion
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Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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We're focusing on that legit sound because it's the closer to that core sound that you are talking about.
Yes, the acoustics of the room has a lot of influence and I've been told to try to play in the room with less reverb as possible. Howhaver the rooms I'm usually studying have a lot of bad reverbs (who has an acoustically treated room?)
To explain a deep further my issues; when I play in this rooms sometimes I can hear the impurities in the tone I'm producing and sometimes not. (To be more precise something like a subtle rattle sound below the staff and a too thin sound above the staff, sometimes some airy sound).
My main problem in fixing this is that even thou I'm having those emissions issues a lot of times I can't really always hear them and I have to be dependent on recording myself or from someone else. |
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WxJeff
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 2484
Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| amarokmclion wrote: |
To explain a deep further my issues; when I play in this rooms sometimes I can hear the impurities in the tone I'm producing and sometimes not. (To be more precise something like a subtle rattle sound below the staff and a too thin sound above the staff, sometimes some airy sound).
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Yes! I understand what you are saying.
One year we played a beautiful arrangement of "Silent Night" that is not technically challenging but very lyrical. It ends with the solo trumpet holding a third space "C" for about 12 counts. Simple, eh? We had a young lady performing interpretive dance so the 12 counts actually became a "fermata" while she completed her movements. I could actually feel that core sound slipping away in my embouchure as my air gave out. Ahhh, back to Schlossberg and long tones to build stamina and endurance!!
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Kanstul F Besson International 800 Bb
Jupiter SCR-520 |
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deleted_user_680e93b
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| amarokmclion wrote: | We're focusing on that legit sound because it's the closer to that core sound that you are talking about.
Yes, the acoustics of the room has a lot of influence and I've been told to try to play in the room with less reverb as possible. Howhaver the rooms I'm usually studying have a lot of bad reverbs (who has an acoustically treated room?)
To explain a deep further my issues; when I play in this rooms sometimes I can hear the impurities in the tone I'm producing and sometimes not. (To be more precise something like a subtle rattle sound below the staff and a too thin sound above the staff, sometimes some airy sound).
My main problem in fixing this is that even thou I'm having those emissions issues a lot of times I can't really always hear them and I have to be dependent on recording myself or from someone else. |
The things and sounds your describing are not uncommon for beginners and comebackers. Your embouchure needs to get re-established with the use of good and proper technique in the fundamentals which you say your teacher is assigning, Does the teacher provide you with examples of good playing techniques by playing for you often so you can hear a good sound?
If he doesn't play often asked him assuming its a he, to play for you more. Hopefully he has a sound you do want to emulate, although it my not be. I had a teacher whose sound i hated, but was forced to stay with him for a semester. A great sound concept goes a long way when trying to make a nice sound on the horn. Be patient though, as it sounds like your in the beginning stages of your comeback !!
good luck,
tom |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Just a stab.
Soft playing. Breath attacks. Working on starting notes with even the slightest amount of air. This can be a uniquely frustrating thing to work on because you have to put your strength and the desire to muscle the problem aside. But consistent work in this area often results in a much more resonant and satisfying tone.
I hesitate to recommend that you switch from you 3C to a 1.5C but that usually produces a deeper tone, which is what you say you're going for.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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amarokmclion
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2018
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| KRELL1960 wrote: |
The things and sounds your describing are not uncommon for beginners and comebackers. Your embouchure needs to get re-established with the use of good and proper technique in the fundamentals which you say your teacher is assigning, Does the teacher provide you with examples of good playing techniques by playing for you often so you can hear a good sound?
If he doesn't play often asked him assuming its a he, to play for you more. Hopefully he has a sound you do want to emulate, although it my not be. I had a teacher whose sound i hated, but was forced to stay with him for a semester. A great sound concept goes a long way when trying to make a nice sound on the horn. Be patient though, as it sounds like your in the beginning stages of your comeback !!
good luck,
tom |
Yes when we are having lessons my teacher plays with me. The problem is that I can't take lessons very often. I guess I'll have to find my sound concept listening to more music or something like this 
| cheiden wrote: | Just a stab.
Soft playing. Breath attacks. Working on starting notes with even the slightest amount of air. This can be a uniquely frustrating thing to work on because you have to put your strength and the desire to muscle the problem aside. But consistent work in this area often results in a much more resonant and satisfying tone.
I hesitate to recommend that you switch from you 3C to a 1.5C but that usually produces a deeper tone, which is what you say you're going for. |
I'll try to focus more on soft breath attacks. Also I'll might try a bigger mouthpiece but I'm not completely sold on this. |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| amarokmclion wrote: |
| cheiden wrote: | | I hesitate to recommend that you switch from you 3C to a 1.5C but that usually produces a deeper tone, which is what you say you're going for. |
I'll try to focus more on soft breath attacks. Also I'll might try a bigger mouthpiece but I'm not completely sold on this. |
I have a love/hate relationship with the Bach 1.5C. If you were to consider a hardware change you might instead consider going from a Bach 3C to a Curry 3C. Assuming the Bach you play is a modern piece (not an older model) the Curry shouldn't feel very different but I do recall the Curry sounding noticeably more full.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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LSOfanboy
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
You need to listen for energy/buzz/vibrancy in your sound at all dynamics. The most resonant players sound very intense up close; don't mistake this for 'harsh', 'brittle' or an overwhelmingly 'bright' sound, but be aware that a dull sound (which weaker players often believe to be 'dark') is also not desirable. The idea is to have a sound that is open and easy, with smooth production and no hint of being pushed or strained, but with a real intense buzz within the sound.
Tom Hooten has a great way of developing this; he asks for a player to put a straight mute in and produce a very 'buzzy' sound, he then slowly removes the mute but asks the player to maintain the same focus and vibrancy to their sound. This is great for tone concept and the sensation of producing a vibrant sound.
Forget the mouthpiece thing. Producing a good same is unrelated to mouthpiece choice. A mouthpiece can change the balance of the sound (more or less high overtones etc.) but not the quality of the sound you are making, with the exception of a very shallow mouthpiece preventing the lips from vibrating.
All the best |
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