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cgaiii
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1208
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Louise,
Thanks for your insights. I remember your careful answers to earlier queries of mine and appreciate your taking the time to chime in here. Absolutely no offense taken at anything. I think most people here know way more than I do. Everyone's experience adds to the big picture.
I am also new to the C (modern horn). I recognize the need for a little less air for the shorter horn. I am a bit spoiled by my Bb these days and want get a C that is even throughout rather than one that tightens up. The BSC horn, though tight for my taste, had this characteristic, so I know it is possible. I might have to go with something a little tighter than my Bb, but we shall see. I think there are a lot of possibilities out there right now. I struggle a little with overblowing the baroque trumpet at times, so I really get what you are talking about with your C. One of the ways to train on this is to switch keys. My mentor tells me to play it in at least two keys each time I devote a practice session to it. (I have 4 keys available to me -- C (A=440), C (A=415) = Cb, D (A=440), D (A=415)=Db -- definitely as you go up in key, the characteristics change a little even on the "same" horn. This is certainly an area I need work in.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Baroque Tr: Altenburg
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4426
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Hi Louise,

Hi cgaiii

Thanks for your insights. I remember your careful answers to earlier queries of mine and appreciate your taking the time to chime in here.

You are very welcome.

Absolutely no offense taken at anything.

Thank you.

I think most people here know way more than I do. Everyone's experience adds to the big picture.

I agree with your second statement above. Regarding your first, you are no doubt being too modest.

I am also new to the C (modern horn).

Thanks very much for the clarification.

I recognize the need for a little less air for the shorter horn.

In this regard, please bear in mind that I am only relating my experience. I have no idea of the general consensus in this regard with C trumpets.

I am a bit spoiled by my Bb these days and want get a C that is even throughout rather than one that tightens up. The BSC horn, though tight for my taste, had this characteristic, so I know it is possible.

As I said previously, I feel that my C trumpet tightens above the stave. I also may be spoiled with my Bb. I have a Yamaha Xeno II. Although not a particularly free blowing horn overall in my opinion (I thought the blow was too tight until I reduced the mouthpiece gap of my mouthpiece with sleeves to match that of the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece, with the result that my trumpet opened up nicely), the difference between the Xeno II and previous versions (Xeno I, 6335HII, 6335H), is that it is so even in response throughout the registers. Without re-reading the whole thread, I can't remember if you have tried a Yamaha C trumpet, but if not, might be worth a try, considering the evenness of the Xeno II Bb. I haven't played a newish Yamaha C trumpet, so have no personal experience of how they play.

I might have to go with something a little tighter than my Bb, but we shall see. I think there are a lot of possibilities out there right now.

Yes, definitely a lot of possibilities.

I struggle a little with overblowing the baroque trumpet at times, so I really get what you are talking about with your C. One of the ways to train on this is to switch keys. My mentor tells me to play it in at least two keys each time I devote a practice session to it. (I have 4 keys available to me -- C (A=440), C (A=415) = Cb, D (A=440), D (A=415)=Db -- definitely as you go up in key, the characteristics change a little even on the "same" horn. This is certainly an area I need work in.

Very interesting, thanks very much.

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a discussion with Wayne Tanabe of Yamaha. He said that the Xeno II series incorporated many of the features of the Artist series. Definitely worth trying.

Previously I tried a Gen I Yamaha NY C and thought it was one of the best I'd ever played.


Last edited by Ed Kennedy on Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cgaiii
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
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Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the difference between the Xeno II and previous versions (Xeno I, 6335HII, 6335H), is that it is so even in response throughout the registers.
Do you have experience with the 6335 horns? I played one of these once and really liked the response. I did not run it through its paces (did not really check out much of the upper register only up to a bout G above the staff. Do you feel they tighten up above the staff?

Without re-reading the whole thread, I can't remember if you have tried a Yamaha C trumpet, but if not, might be worth a try, considering the evenness of the Xeno II Bb. I haven't played a newish Yamaha C trumpet, so have no personal experience of how they play.
Have not played a Yamaha C. If I get a chance I will give one a try.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Baroque Tr: Altenburg
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4426
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Do you have experience with the 6335 horns? I played one of these once and really liked the response. I did not run it through its paces (did not really check out much of the upper register only up to a bout G above the staff. Do you feel they tighten up above the staff?

Hi cgaiii

I have not played the medium weight 6335, which is still being made, only the heavy weight 6335HII, which was the successor of the 6335H and predecessor of the Xeno I. I played the gold brassed bell 6335HGII for quite a few years. Bearing in mind, I played a Bach 37 in between and owned my 6335HGII and Xeno II around ten years apart, I can only go with my past memories of my 6335HGII. No, I don't think that it tightened above the stave in particular, only that it wasn't as even in response throughout the registers as my Xeno II.


Have not played a Yamaha C. If I get a chance I will give one a try.

Definitely worth a try in my opinion, considering the response of the new Bbs, but I have only had the briefest go on a Yamaha C and I believe that it was an older Xeno, and didn't really try it in the upper register.

All the best

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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65strad
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Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 975
Location: Toms River, New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
cgaiii wrote:
....The idea of a more open back bore is interesting. Any suggestions?

Over the many years reading this board, I read that a significant number of players use a stock Bach mouthpiece on Bb and then get the same mouthpiece opened to a 24 throat and 24 backbore for their C trumpet.


Yup, 24 backbore and 24 throat for my 3C Bach Chicago
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Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602
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Speed
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Joined: 13 May 2015
Posts: 257
Location: Mississippi

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach's new line of "Symphonic" mouthpieces come standard with a 24 backbore and either a 24 or 22 throat. My understanding is that Bach decided to manufacture them on the line, rather than as custom mouthpieces, due to the volume of the demand from orchestral players.

I have one of them in a 1.5C, with a 24 backbore and a 22 throat, and I like it.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 419
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My C-trumpet was an Antoine Courtois 'Delmotte' a brassy sounding instrument, for years it was my main horn.
I had a lot of fun with it though I sold her 10 years ago. I never regretted this: the orchestral work I have to do now I do with a Getzen 900 large bore Eterna with ease, no more fighting to play in tune with D" or E" etc. most of the music is in Bb anyway.

The Courtois Delmotte is a free blowing easy to handle trumpet with great valves, really an underdestimated horn
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anybody had any extended (like in a band setting) playing experience with the lacquered gold bell Kanstul 1510 (not the 1510A) C trumpet?

If so, I would love to hear your thoughts/impressions on this horn.

http://www.kanstul.com/instruments/trumpets/1510-c-trumpet/

Thanks much.
Cheers,
Harry


Last edited by Harry Hilgers on Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 6583
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
Has anybody had any extended (like in a band setting) playing experience with the lacquered gold bell Kanstul 1500 (not the 1500A) C trumpet?

If so, I would love to hear your thoughts/impressions on this horn.

http://www.kanstul.com/instruments/trumpets/1510-c-trumpet/

Thanks much.
Cheers,
Harry


Harry,

The C version of the 1500 is the 1510. As far as I know that model is always made with a copper bell. I suppose someone could special order a brass bell, but I remember Zig saying of the 1500 that no one ever had.

I played it at the showroom several times. It plays and sounds like a Bb trumpet, only in C. I think it's a really good C. I think it would be a little more usable in more orchestral settings if it had a little thinner bell material, like the 0.020" sheet used for the 1601 Tim Wendt model.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Harry Hilgers wrote:
Has anybody had any extended (like in a band setting) playing experience with the lacquered gold bell Kanstul 1500 (not the 1500A) C trumpet?

If so, I would love to hear your thoughts/impressions on this horn.

http://www.kanstul.com/instruments/trumpets/1510-c-trumpet/

Thanks much.
Cheers,
Harry


Harry,

The C version of the 1500 is the 1510. As far as I know that model is always made with a copper bell. I suppose someone could special order a brass bell, but I remember Zig saying of the 1500 that no one ever had.

I played it at the showroom several times. It plays and sounds like a Bb trumpet, only in C. I think it's a really good C. I think it would be a little more usable in more orchestral settings if it had a little thinner bell material, like the 0.020" sheet used for the 1601 Tim Wendt model.


Brian,
Thanks.

Your comments give me a good initial perspective.
I have always liked the tonality of copper bell horns.

I am in contact with Jack "as we speak".

BTW, I "miss-spoke". I meant the 1510. I corrected my post.

Thanks again.
Cheers,
Harry
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2480
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
Has anybody had any extended (like in a band setting) playing experience with the lacquered gold bell Kanstul 1510 (not the 1510A) C trumpet?

If so, I would love to hear your thoughts/impressions on this horn.

http://www.kanstul.com/instruments/trumpets/1510-c-trumpet/

Thanks much.
Cheers,
Harry


Hi Harry

I own one, it's a 'reserve', or 'spare' instrument. they seem to be very nice instruments, but I did do some changes with factory parts. First was a compounded tuning slide, and second were heavy valve caps.. This had the effect of opening the horn up a lot, but not so much you lost the feel of where notes wanted to be. It's now an open, free blowing instrument that doesn't close up in the upper register. It might do with a precision valve alignment. That however, is in the future!

You won't go wring with this, or the earlier Besson stamped models that Kanstul made (just DO NOT get one made in India, or wherever they get them cheaply made now!).

cheers

Andy
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
just DO NOT get one made in India, or wherever they get them cheaply made now!.

Andy, thanks for your reply. Much appreciated.
What makes you think Kanstul has their horns
made in India?
Cheers
Harry
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veery715
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
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Location: Ithaca NY

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Callet has a C SIMA which is very nice. And while they were in business the New York Trumpet Company sold a Stage 1 California C.

I have one of each of these and if you can find an example of the latter I highly recommend trying it.
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Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
....... just DO NOT get one made in India, or wherever they get them cheaply made now!.

Hi Andy,
This from the Kanstul website under FAQ:
Quote:
Q: Where are your instruments made?
A: All of our instruments are manufactured in Anaheim, California, right here in the United States of America. We are located about a mile and a half from Disneyland.

I thought I would pass this on FYI.

Again, your reply is very much appreciated.
Cheers,
Harry
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry,

I could be wrong, but I think the poster was warning about Besson horns made in India now.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.


Last edited by shofarguy on Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Harry,

I could be wrong, but I think the poster was warning about Besson horns made in China now.

+1

Buy a kanstul made besson, not an India made besson.
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Harry,

I could be wrong, but I think the poster was warning about Besson horns made in China now.

+1

Buy a kanstul made besson, not an India made besson.


Brian, Rusty,
Thanks for pointing this out.
In retrospect, this would make sense.

Cheers,
Harry
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LakeTahoeTrpt
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Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned Bach, Benge, Yamaha and Taylor C trumpets. Various inconsistencies on each kept me searching. Five years ago I bought a used Kanstul 1500 and never looked back. Not only is it my main horn for orchestral and quintet work, it is my main practice horn.

This, of course, is my experience, which may differ from yours...but I couldn't be happier. It blows freely, I don't struggle with intonation, it has a nice fat sound, and an easy upper register. The .464 bore and copper bell help a lot, I think.

And at night while I sleep, it washes and waxes my car...well, maybe it's not quite that good...
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Kanstul 1510 C
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Buescher 400 Model 275 Cornet
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LakeTahoeTrpt wrote:
......... I bought a used Kanstul 1500 and never looked back..........

Thanks much for your reply. That is good information. (BTW I am assuming you meant the 1510C)

Meanwhile I blew all my available C-horn money at a Kanstul 4-valve Tenor/Alto horn. Don't ask. Long story that really doesn't belong in this thread.

Maybe next year the C-horn.

Cheers,
Harry
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