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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:45 am    Post subject: C Trumpet Search Reply with quote

I have been having some fun looking for a C trumpet. Looking at used ones as time permits, usually when I am in Tokyo because of all the music stores that have used horns.
Yesterday I spent an hour with a BSC Allemande. Though the horn is not quite open enough for me, it was a wonderful horn, very even throughout the entire range. I had never had any experience with BSC before, but this is a really quality horn.
Today I played a Schilke S22C. On first blow it had that familiar Schilke sound, but it was a pretty tight horn, particularly in the upper register a bit uneven in response.
I have also tried a Bach 180L 256, which was very playable but not quite to my taste, a Stomvi Elite, also very playable and a Bach 180L 229, which I did not like so much. None were quite free enough for me to drop money on.
Still in the hunt. Since I play a Schilke X3L regularly, I am wondering if something like a CX would be good, but I have not found one to try yet.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
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Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two thoughts:
Yes, the Schilke CX is worth a try because of its similar open bell flare to your X3, and they're both large bore.

A significant number of players use a mouthpiece with a larger throat and backbore on their C trumpet. Have you tried that?
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick response.

I have been using two mouthpieces when I check out the C horns. 1 a normal Bach 1.5C, 2. a Bach 1.5C with the throat bored out one size larger. They are both mouthpieces I use on Bb trumpets. The idea of a more open back bore is interesting. Any suggestions? I have been playing this mouthpiece for years and base all my other mouthpieces on it (my baroque trumpet mp and piccolo mp) adjusting some parameters to fit the horn. That technique has been most comfortable. (I tried changing more drastically, but it has never worked so far.)
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Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:55 am    Post subject: C trumpet search Reply with quote

Hello,
The Schilke CX, C5 or the new C3HD if you are looking for Schilke. I had a Yamaha 6445 that was just fine and more even then some.
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cjl
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bach Chicago is the best off-the-shelf C I have ever tried.

— Joe
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Jerry
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
....The idea of a more open back bore is interesting. Any suggestions?

Over the many years reading this board, I read that a significant number of players use a stock Bach mouthpiece on Bb and then get the same mouthpiece opened to a 24 throat and 24 backbore for their C trumpet.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you try the Bach Artisan, Chicago or Philly builds? ---better than the standard CL 239 which is nothing to shake a stick at..

You should also look at Shires - some marvelous C's ...


I've also found better results with the same mouthpiece I use on my Bb but with a more open throat - for me a 25 on my CL239
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me a larger backbore is the way to go. Bach 7 or 24, Schilke Schmidt, Warburton 9 or 9* to 12. I like the 10 with a Warburton 4MC top on my Bach Artisan C and I liked it on the Schilke S22CHD that I had before. When I was playing C full time (over 30 years ago) I was playing on a Bach 1 with a 25 throat and Schmidt backbore done by Schilke. (on a stock 1971 CL229 Bach).

If you want a wide open horn, check out Flip Oaks' C. He'll send you one on trial. Rob Smith, principal trumpet of the Florida Orchestra in Tampa, plays a Shires with a wide open leadpipe venturi. That's pretty free blowing. Personally, I regard a certain amount of resistance as my friend.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=109302&s=Schilke-CX

Just saw this in Market Place.

Also check out the Curry 1.5BC:
http://www.currympc.com/index.php?id=47
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Speed
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding your question about larger backbore mouthpieces, I recently bought one of the new Bach Symphonic mouthpieces. I got the 1.5C with a 22 throat and a 24 backbore. I am a fan of open mouthpieces, and it fits the bill.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
Regarding your question about larger backbore mouthpieces, I recently bought one of the new Bach Symphonic mouthpieces. I got the 1.5C with a 22 throat and a 24 backbore. ...

Wow, I didn't know Bach was doing this. It looks like Dillon Music in New Jersey is selling them for $75: https://www.dillonmusic.com/bach-bach-symphonic-trumpet-mouthpiece.html#informationtab
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chloebh
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played Bachs that were hard to forget, but as far as solid, consistently great C trumpets, don't overlook Powell or Blackburn.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the Bach Chicago and Philadelphia models are the best C trumpets on the market. The Artisan C is also quite nice.

Shires makes some great C trumpets as well. In particular the horns with the #4 bell -- similar to a Bach 229 -- really stand out: The 4F and then the 401.

Yamaha's New York II and Chicago II C trumpets rank with the best. They are REALLY expensive, but if you can afford the price you'd get a very fine horn (particularly the NY II).

Have fun searching!
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, while I was flying back from Japan, a lot of wisdom came down. I will have to check out both horns and mouthpieces. The Bach Symphonic mouthpieces sound interesting. My current favorite mouthpiece for my X3L Bb is a Bach 1.5C with the bore opened from the standard 27 to 26. But the idea of one designed from the start with the rim and cup I like and the more open throat seems worth a try.
Saw the ad in the Marketplace but would really like to try before buying. Perhaps I will ask the poster where he is.
_________________
Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
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johntpt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would recommend you try either a CXL or a S22CHD which will be easier to find. The CX is similar in specs to your Bb trumpet, but if you find the S22C a bit tight you might feel the same way about the CX. The tuning bell model opens it up a lot. Also the S22CHD does not have that tightness that you found in the S22C.

At the moment I have 5 Schilke C's in my aresenal and have owned quite a few others. My favorites are the S22CHD and the CXL. I used to own both a CX and a CXL but I ended up selling the CX.

JU
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BFlinch83
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Yamaha NY2 is the best off the shelf C I’ve tried. I have to say that a Powell I had played even better but the sound was too thick for projecting in the orchestra. The Yamaha is a light and brilliant horn in the YM bell which is what I have. Good pitch too. The Chicago is good too but lacked the easy brilliance of the N.Y. for me. They are about $1000 more than a new Bach but worth that in my opinion.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, the OP wants a free blowing C trumpet and SO many suggest a Bach or Yamaha, which seem to be the antithesis of free blowing! (Yes, you can find an aberrant Bach, but with so many people saying they have got their act together, what are the chances?)

Free blowing to me is like saying NOT a Bach 37. And remember, the OP didn't like a Bach with a 256 bell, which is much more open.

I think he needs to move past the stock Bach/Yamaha world and their clones.

An old student of mine got a Bach 229/25H from a small workshop in Zurich which has been given a similar treatment to the Osmun blueprinting service. It IS a great horn, maybe the only Bach C I have played in 20 years that I would have considered owning. (good friend of mine bought it). So maybe, just maybe, a good exemplar can be tweaked to be free blowing.

Or, a tuning bell Schilke, a Kanstul with reverse leadpipe, even old Selmer radial (99 bore) will all be much more free of a blow. Spiri in Switzerland can do amazing things to a stock Bach (essentially change out so much it's no longer a Bach). Old Kanstul built Bessons are also terrific if you get the large bore model (the extra large seems a little light weight, the smaller ones a bit tighter).

Or, you talk to a custom build house and tell them what you want. If you are clear enough, it might work and you'll have the horn of your dreams!

cheers

Andy
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J-Walk
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larson Brasswerks “Reese” Model C is my favorite. I sold my CX in favor of it. Ken is making extraordinary horns. I agree with those suggesting you match your mouthpiece to whatever C you decide on.
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Schilke S32HD
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Larson Brasswerks “Reese” Model C
Schilke P5-4 picc
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A few mouthpieces that fit my face and horns


Last edited by J-Walk on Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johntpt wrote:
I would recommend you try either a CXL or a S22CHD which will be easier to find. The CX is similar in specs to your Bb trumpet, but if you find the S22C a bit tight you might feel the same way about the CX. The tuning bell model opens it up a lot. Also the S22CHD does not have that tightness that you found in the S22C.

At the moment I have 5 Schilke C's in my aresenal and have owned quite a few others. My favorites are the S22CHD and the CXL. I used to own both a CX and a CXL but I ended up selling the CX.


This is extremely interesting information. I did not realize that the tuning bell would make such a difference in opening up the horn. I got my Bb because I was in a used instrument shop in Japan and just loved the horn at first blow. It was not even broken in well and was a great price, so I just bought it. Had not done much research on why. I have been looking for a CXL, but cannot find one so far in any kind of decent shape.

Since I will be in NYC next week, I will have a chance to try the CX posted here, but, yes, I found the S22C tight and also having a characteristic of my old Yamaha Bb, it seems to get substantially tighter in the upper register. Some horns I have played, including my X3L seem, to be a lot more even. The BSC Allemande was tighter than I would like, but it did not have this phenomenon of seeming to tighten up in the upper register. It was really even throughout all registers. I assume that this is a desirable characteristic for some players, and just as I can understand why some like more resistance, I can see why some may like it. Unfortunately, I do not.
It will be really interesting to try the CX. When I talked to the people at Schilke about it they seems to think I could play a CX and get a feel for the CXL. Now I want to try an X3 some day and see if the tuning bell makes a difference there.
Every time I play other horns Bb or C, I am even gladder that I bought that X3L. I was really just out researching that day, but could not resist. It is also not a plain X3L. It has the Aturo Sandoval modifications, so that may make some difference.
Ah, so many horns to try, so little time to try them.
Thanks to everyone for the great insights.
_________________
Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: C Trumpet Search Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
I have been having some fun looking for a C trumpet. Looking at used ones as time permits, usually when I am in Tokyo because of all the music stores that have used horns.
Yesterday I spent an hour with a BSC Allemande. Though the horn is not quite open enough for me, it was a wonderful horn, very even throughout the entire range. I had never had any experience with BSC before, but this is a really quality horn.
Today I played a Schilke S22C. On first blow it had that familiar Schilke sound, but it was a pretty tight horn, particularly in the upper register a bit uneven in response.
I have also tried a Bach 180L 256, which was very playable but not quite to my taste, a Stomvi Elite, also very playable and a Bach 180L 229, which I did not like so much. None were quite free enough for me to drop money on.
Still in the hunt. Since I play a Schilke X3L regularly, I am wondering if something like a CX would be good, but I have not found one to try yet.
Any suggestions would be welcome.


Hi cgaiii

I haven't been on here much lately, so please excuse me if I ask questions that should be obvious. I fully appreciate that you also play piccolo and baroque trumpets, but do you currently play C, have you played C before, are you looking for your first C, a C after having not owned one for a while etc.?

You've tried more C trumpets than I have, so my help is probably not of much use, but here goes.

I'm reasonably new to C trumpet. I bought my first C a year or two ago, after having played only Bb trumpet, cornet and flugel. I don't play piccolo, any of the other keyed trumpets, or baroque.

Having a fairly modest budget, I went with a new old stock Kanstul made F Besson Classic with a Najoom leadpipe. Mine is a large bore, and is reasonably free blowing in that overall it doesn't play much tighter than my Bb, a Xeno II. However whereas my Xeno II is very even in response throughout the registers, my C trumpet does seem to tighten up above the stave.

Since until recently I didn't play it much (at the moment I'm using it a fair amount and have finally gotten to really know it), I'm using the same mouthpiece as I am using on my Bb, 27 throat and Bach 10 style backbore. I have thought about getting the same mouthpiece with a 24 throat and 24 backbore, but questioned my approach first.

As someone who plays piccolo, you are probably used to smaller horns, but in my case, I think I tend to put a bit too much air through on C if I'm not careful. On an equivalent note, I'm primarily a brass band cornet player. I play a Yamaha Xeno cornet and find it sufficiently free blowing. However we are starting to practise some pieces for a swing orientated concert next year, and one of the selections is based on the Robbie Williams Swing When You're Winning Album. As a reasonably experienced big band trumpeter, I'm pretty comfortable on this type of repertoire, but it makes me approach my cornet like my trumpet, only for it to feel that it is backing up on me. Personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong with a trumpet-style approach on cornet for this type of repertoire, but I have to remember to back off a bit. This is hardly surprising, as a brass-band orientated short model cornet is hardly designed for big band trumpet playing.

On my C, I may yet go for a mouthpiece with a 24 throat and 24 backbore, but at the moment, I'm backing off a bit in the upper register and it is not feeling so tight. I'm not for one moment suggesting that you are trying to put too much air through on C, especially as you already play piccolo, but since you are used to a free blowing Bb, it is possible that most C trumpets will feel tight, and it will be case of either trying to find one that best matches the blow of your Bb (I feel that overall the blow of my F Besson Classic is similar to that of my Xeno II trumpet, but it is just tighter in the upper register), or just accept that it is a slightly smaller horn overall, and requires a slightly different approach. Hopefully you'll know what I mean, and not take any offence. I don't know you or your playing, and am making no assumptions, I'm just thinking of my own experience of C after years playing only Bb, and how I am dealing with the tighter upper register.

If you have loads of experience playing C trumpet, and just currently don't own one, please ignore me, as for your purposes, my C trumpet experience is far less than yours.

I hope that this is of some help.

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
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- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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