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Let’s (Not) Get Lost



 
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:57 am    Post subject: Let’s (Not) Get Lost Reply with quote

When you’re soloing what helps you keep your place - especially if the form is not the usual 12 or 32-bar form?

A good example is “Way Down Yonder in New Orleans” which is 28 bars.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While waiting for replies, I found this:

https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/42215/what-to-do-when-you-get-lost-in-a-jazz-song
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
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1946 Conn Victor
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, thinking about phrases, like 4-bar phrases or whatever, instead of notes or riffs helps me find my way. If I can keep a macro view I'm less likely to get lost in the notes.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phrase-focusing helps me, too. I get thrown on odd forms. On "Way Down Yonder" for example. The 28-bar form seems to trick me up. I often blow though the end.

As a remedy, I got the Jamey Abersold playalong with that tune on it and have been shedding. Helps a lot.
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Analyse the tune and know its subdivisions (how many bars in A, how many n B, etc.)

Know the large harmonic directions, then the smaller ones within that.

Know the song and its words, if applicable.

Have big ears.

This last is important. I had a friend who had been gone the year at music conservatory studying jazz. We were playing the same jam session and he accompanied a singer. Sounded really cool. He was doing unique things, harmonically. It sounded "wrong" yet fit perfectly.

Anticipating that he had learned something new and cool at conservatory, I asked him what he was doing. He said, "I was lost!", LOL.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pulled out a fake book with Way Down Yonder in New Orleans. I see what you mean... weird construction. Starts with a conventional 8-bar section. Then it repeats... or so we think. After only 4 bars of the repeat, it lurches off into a surprise 8-bar interjection. (Lyrics: "Stop!") Once that's done, it wraps up with a routine 8-bar phrase that resembles the original section.

So if I were playing this, I'd think: 8 + 4 + (Surprise! 8) + 8.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall talking with Nic Payton during intermission at one of his gigs and I asked him if he counted bars when he was soloing and he looked at me as if I had just arrived from Venus and said, “No.”
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dstdenis, thanks for that. Breaking it down is the way to go.
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
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GizB
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your drummer, who IS counting, after a fashion, should help cue section changes. A good drummer can save your asterisk!
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GizB wrote:
Your drummer, who IS counting, after a fashion, should help cue section changes. A good drummer can save your asterisk!


I was going to say that about the bass player. They should be your rock and guide to everything.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He’s a good drummer. I just need to listen.
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
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GizB
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
He’s a good drummer. I just need to listen.
That helps too!
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Let’s (Not) Get Lost Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
When you’re soloing what helps you keep your place - especially if the form is not the usual 12 or 32-bar form?

A good example is “Way Down Yonder in New Orleans” which is 28 bars.

I think what has helped me the most is that I play most jazz songs from memory. Part of my daily routine is to cycle through a list a common jazz standards, where I practice both the melody and the changes. The more familiar I am with a song, the less likely I am to get lost.

I don't know if others do it, but while I solo (and also when others are soloing), I'm almost always thinking of the melody.

On repetitive songs (like Little Sunflower) or atypical songs (like Take 5), I limit my solos to very clear 4- or 8-bar phrases, and emphasize the downbeats.

You can also listen to the changes to keep from getting lost. Many songs have distinctive changes at some point. For example, on a particular song, a distinctive chord progression may precede the bridge.

If all else fails, we don't stop the song. Instead, while we're still playing, I just shout out that we're going back to the top and count it off.

Mike
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good stuff, Mike!
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle
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jazz_trpt
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any brain power you use counting is brain power you could be using for listening...I'd rather listen than count.
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