Holton-Clarke cornet: mid-staff fuzziness using 1st valve?

trumpetp1

Hello, all. It's been a long while since I've posted anything here...but I've been lurking from time to time.

Anyways, I recently was gifted a 1921 H-C cornet with original case and both high-pitch and low-pitch slides for my birthday. According to the mom&pop music store where it was purchased, the horn was owned by a single player until this store acquired it. Truth? I don't know, but it is in very nice condition, with just a single small dent on the low-pitch third slide crook discovered thus far. I've since given it a thorough cleaning. (Well, as thorough as you can get at home, I suppose.)

For its age, it is a pretty decent player, with one notable exception: it has a fuzzy, un-centered sound in the middle of the staff when using the first valve. That fuzziness is exacerbated with the addition of the second valve (say, when playing Bb to A). However, the second valve doesn't seem unusually fuzzy by itself in the mid-staff range. Further, while the first valve notes above and below mid-staff are perhaps slightly not as centered as others, those higher and lower first valve notes are definitely not fuzzy to the extent of the mid-staff pitches. This fuzziness is present with both high and low pitch slides in place.

What might be causing such a disparity in sound...predominantly within the mid-staff regions using the first valve?

I would guess the nearly 100 years of wear on what appears to be copper-plated valves would have some bearing on this issue. However, I know there are vastly more experienced players on this forum who may have a better idea regarding a potential cause of selective fuzziness in the mid-staff range with a specific valve. While this particular cornet is not my daily player, I would like to hone in on a cause in order to tweak the horn a bit more towards a "normal" sound throughout its range.

Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to provide. It is greatly appreciated.
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trumpetp1

Richard III · Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:21 pm Post subject:

Check for valve leakage by removing a slide crook, placing a finger over the outlet port, and blowing on the leadpipe. To test the entire horn for leaks, you can put a soft rubber ball into the bell and blow on the leadpipe.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

JayKosta · Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:41 pm Post subject:

My guess it there is some valve port misalignment on the 1st valve in the 'down' position.

You might be able to view into the valve casing by removing the 1st valve slide.

Hopefully the L/R rotational positioning is good, because that is much more complicated to adjust. The DOWN position (on my trumpet) is controlled by the thickness of the 'felts' under the valve button.

When I did a DIY alignment on mine (just the DOWN needed work), I found that attempting to determine the 'best' position was NOT by strict 'mechanical measurement and position' .
I needed to do several iterations of testing slightly different thickness 'felts' to get the same 'good sound' with the valve in both the UP and DOWN position.

Instead of actual 'felt', I used hand-cut pieces of thin bicycle tire inner tube - the lightweight tubes are really quite thin. Cutting the basic diameter of the pieces was not a problem, and I used a 'hole punch' intended for leather work for the hole - making a nice round hole of the correct size w/o a punch it difficult.
note: I used to do a lot of cycling, so I have a goodly stock of old tubes ...

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

trumpetp1 · Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:14 pm Post subject:

Tobylou8 · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Posts: 157

Is the 1st slide loose at all? I've had loose slides that would resonate and cause a fuzzy sound.

Evinerate · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Nov 2016 Posts: 154

I remember having a Buescher 400 true tone cornet that had a 3rd valve porting misalignment caused by loose valve top threading. I would always tighten the valve threading but after a few notes, the threading would come loose again while playing and the 3rd valve would be stuffy.

I fixed this by applying "blue velocity" thread lock into the threading area of the 3rd valve piston.

Dennis78 · Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:41 am Post subject:

What mouthpiece are you using? These old Holtons had a different taper
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a few different ones

trumpetp1 · Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:40 am Post subject:

yourbrass · Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:23 pm Post subject:

Those cornets usually have very loose valves. Use the heaviest oil you can - BerpBioOil #3 or Hetman #3.
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Evinerate · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Nov 2016 Posts: 154

Or it also could be that there is a very tiny hole somewhere on the horn or loose solder somewhere on the 1st valve slide that is causing air leakage while playing making the horn stuffy when using the 1st slide.

70 percent of my leakage problems on antique brass instruments have been due to this.

adc · Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:08 pm Post subject:

I have bought played and serviced or had serviced at least 20 pre 1930 horns.

Thoroughly clean the horn especially the passages between 1st&2nd and 2nd &3rd valves. Fill all slides with water and check for leaks. remove the tuning slide and put a cork in the end of lead pipe...fill the lead pipe and check for leaks. Look for misalignment of valves when in the down position (check by removing the valve slides.

Start there.
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Too many Old Cornets to Count

JetJaguar · Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject:

I haven't read all the previous responses but you might check where the slide crook attaches to the valve casing. There might be a separation. I have a Dansant that has that issue. Currently patched with chewing gum.
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trumpetp1 · Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:18 am Post subject:

Well, I'm sure that I may have missed something, but...

I could not seem to find any leaks around solder joints nor dreadfully misaligned valves.

I did discover that if the valves are kept quite wet with "vintage" oil and I seal [as best I can] the first valve slide with my left hand, the fuzziness is decreased - not fully eliminated, just quite diminished.

Soooo, I'm on the hunt for some thicker slide grease than the Selmer/Bach red goop. Further, I'm not a fan on Hetman, so I've been using Yamaha synthetic vintage oil. Any more "vintage" oil suggestions? I think someone mentioned BerpBioOil #3. Is this any better - in terms of sealing potentially leaky 98 year old valves - than Yamaha...or Hetman?

Thank you again to all who provided guidance and suggestions! Much appreciated!
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trumpetp1

Evinerate · Veteran Member Joined: 15 Nov 2016 Posts: 154

Thanks for checking back, it could also be a problem with a hole in the porting holes of the 1st valve piston itself, this can happen sometimes with really old trumpets pre 1930s. I would say it would be a good idea to bring the horn to a brass tech at this point for him/her to diagnose the leaking problem wherever it may be.

trumpetp1 · Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:54 am Post subject:

Richard III · Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:19 pm Post subject:

The more I think about it, the more it seems that you have a straight-up leak. Not a leaky valve, but a crack somewhere that is letting the air out. Time for a good technician.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

trumpetp1 · Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:06 pm Post subject:

adc · Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:40 pm Post subject:

Start with a light sewing machine oil like "3 and 1" (no motor oil) start with 2 parts valve oil and 1 part machine oil.

For the slides..just temporarily use a small piece of scotch tape on the male end near the base to seal and see if it improves.
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Too many Old Cornets to Count

JayKosta · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:58 am Post subject:

If the valve slide are slightly loose or out-of-round, that should be a fairly quick and inexpensive repair.

For heavy valve oil, I recommend using a few drops of Mineral Oil from the pharmacy, and then slowly adding (drop by drop) regular petroleum valve oil such as Al Cass - until the desired valve action is obtained. If you've use synthetic oils, then first do a thorough cleaning to remove them.
note - testing the valves and sound with just the heavy oil might give you info about whether 'loose valves' are the problem.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

Richard III · Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:27 am Post subject: