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Playing on the red


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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I don’t believe any solid conclusions can really be drawn by anyone in these discussions.

The OP and anyone else can reach conclusions by testing some of this for themselves.

I suggested a simple way for LSO to demonstrate that lip tension doesn't have to change to go through the range of the horn - i.e. to change frequencies. He'll never provide that demonstration because that assertion is incorrect.

OP and anyone else can try it for themselves - watch in a mirror and see if you can go from a soft low F# to a loud high C with no visible change in the embouchure. I don't mean minimal change, I mean *no* change. Not gonna happen.
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
When Darryl gets involved, I bow out. Unfortunately the three of us all appear to have different ideas and seemingly different interpretations of apparently proven science.

Personally I don't have the stomach for arguments that go round and round on this site. I have my career and am both proud and grateful for my achievements and opportunities- as far as I am aware neither Robert nor Darryl have played professionally and so I don't feel that I personally need to argue with either over my views and teaching methods.

To any other students reading this, let this be a lesson on the wide variety of views you will be confronted with. I do believe my understanding to be accurate and proven, but also accept that we all have our own individual experiences and interpretations, so am sympathetic to those who hold their own beliefs and disagree with my understanding. Ultimately you will have to do your own research and form your own opinion, but be slow to follow blindly the words of any of the three of us.

All the best! I'm out!


To me, your perspective is strangely skewed.

First, to the best of my knowledge, you have never revealed your identity. So, unless you stop hiding behind anonymity, your repeated comments about how great you are as a player are basically worthless. People on the internet can claim anything as truth.

A lot of pro players post here using their real names - Jim Wilt, Richard Sandals, Dave Hickman, Peter Bond, and many more. They are all straight-up people, and well-respected here on TH. So if you are a pro, then come on in - the water is fine.

Second, assuming that you are a working pro, it actually means very little in the bigger picture of offering advice here. Knowledge is more important than professional status. The specific way that you have achieved success as a pro (assuming it is true) does not necessarily translate to success for others. There are countless examples of well-intended pro players unintentionally leading students down a bad path.

I suspect that you may not want my advice, but here it is anyway. If you want to validate that you give great teaching advice, gather some testimonials from players you have actually been responsible for helping, and post them.

Jeff
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Mike Sailors
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Joined: 30 Oct 2012
Posts: 1838
Location: Austin/New York City

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does any of this nonsense have to do with playing on the red?

Have you guys heard of the PM function here? It’s really great.
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casivake718
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Joined: 28 Dec 2016
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One day with this change. Slowly getting the range back. Up to a high c-ish right now. What I've noticed with the embouchure I was using was that I was buzzing with the back of my top lip and the front of my bottom lip. It gave me a nice sound with notes below high c and I was able to do pedals too, but didn't help with notes above high c. Now, both my top and bottom lip are playing on the same place, which can hopefully fix my playing entirely.
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Mike Sailors
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Joined: 30 Oct 2012
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Location: Austin/New York City

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing in the red is fine. Literally everyone who plays trumpet does it.
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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Playing on the red Reply with quote

casivake718 wrote:
I was reading a forum here of somebody that had a lesson with Roger Ingram, who is my favorite lead trumpet player, and he was saying how Roger always plays on the red part of his lip. I have a somewhat meaty lip so I've always just curled my lips to fit the mouthpiece I use.

I should have asked this earlier - can you clarify what you mean by "plays on the red part of his lip"?

Some part of the mp is always going to be on the vermilion (red). It's pretty common for much, most or all of the inner rim "ring" to be on the red. I recall years ago seeing a beginning trumpet book stating that a small part of the white should show inside the rim on a visualizer but I thought that was really misguided instruction - that's only going to work with someone with very thin lips. For me personally for example, there's no way I could play like that. It just wouldn't work.

I guess I was assuming you meant the whole mp outer rim and all being on the red but watching vids of Roger play, that's certainly not the case with him.
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know how my comment relates at this point —— or any point, but I did 3 things in succession earlier this year which all had to do with the “red in the lips” and so far have been positive 😚 1st I went to a much narrower mp and every aspect got better, 2- I started actively playing with both lips and began thinking they should be as involved as the upper in aperture shape, 3- I started saying aaaaaah-ooooooooh and placing the mp on the lips with the lips somewhat out. This allowed me to find out that only the pink not red part produces the sympathetic vibration. I’m sure everyone finds out things in their own way. For years I heard “the lips aren’t the key” and until I discovered the things above I didn’t understand and still may not. Lips and shape are feeling real good now, if I can learn to make the air flow with out tensing I maybe getting somewhere. Panting 5 minutes will show you flow without blow!
Rod
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