Effect of tone color (bright/dark) on intonation

[SwissCornetist]

Hi,
When our conductor tuned our brass band to 442 Hz, he told me that according to the tuner my intonation is just fine. However, he wanted to adjust my tuning slide to a higher pitch. According to him I have a dark tone and therefore I should intone higher. Now my question is does this make sense? I never heard about that before. Further I have to say I talk about a 3rd section band where the intonation is anyways not the best What do you guys think about the effect of the tone color (dark/bright) on intonation?

[CJceltics33]

Hmmmm, the idea makes sense that a sound too bright or too dark may sound a tad out of tune but I don’t think that is the solution. To me it seems an error of blending with the people around you.

[Brad361]

I think the post above is correct, I don’t think tone color should affect pitch. That being said, if someone’s tone is bright or dark because of incorrect playing (ie, bright because of a pinched, forced approach, or a dark sound because of poor breath support, or a weak, loose embouchure), pitch probably IS affected.

Now I’ll wait for some of the guys here who truly understand the acoustics of sound and brass instruments to set us straight!😉

Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval

[Richard III]

As someone who is very sensitive to pitch, I notice that those people who say they have a dark tone, sound to me like they are playing low on the pitch. I hear missing overtones and they sound flat. A recent poster here asked for critiques of his recording and I said nothing. The style was to play in that overly relaxed way and it all sounded flat to me.

I listened to a recording of a band I was in sometime back. The tuner said I was right on. The recording said I was flat. The mouthpiece/cornet combination I was playing dampened the upper harmonics. After hearing that, I just pushed in the slide and all was good. You are not playing with tuners but real people with real instruments.

For our experts, does any of that make sense?
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[Rod Haney]

I’ve never found tone color to have much to do with the waves/oscillations I hear when I’m not in tune. ?? Could it be that he is mixing issues. In tune is in tune and I’ve always heard ‘out of tune’ quite distinctly as a wa-wa type of impression. It takes a bit of talent to hold against a drone for say a count of 5 without any oscillations, and requires 2 very talented wind musicians to play together with 0 oscillation for a count of 5. Dark or bright is a function of the resonance you produce IMO, and not at all related. I certainly only see the point I’ve made because I have an unusually accurate ear, and not from an understanding of theory/sound. Please ask the conductor to explain his point (if he won’t hold it against you) as I don’t understand why he associates intonation with color/timbre?? This could certainly be because of my limited understanding, just seems like 2 different things.
Rod

[Andy Del]

The answer is to smile, nod head, and pretend to move your slide in. Then get on with playing.

It matters not a whit where your tuning slide is, as long as you are in the ball park, tuning-wise. Unless very deaf or ignorant of intonation, you will use your ears to adjust to what you think is in tune, even if the slide is wrong... then, if you can FEEL this, move the slide to adjust and make things easier.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[nieuwguyski]

Conductors/Directors say some interesting things. When I was in college I remember the band director spending endless amounts of time on tuning. Most of the clarinets were always sharp.

Then one rehearsal the clarinets were mostly in tune and I had to push my tuning slide in. At my next private lesson I asked the band-director/brass-instructor, "Are you tuning the band sharp so the clarinets will be in tune?"

He denied it vigorously: "No! I'm tuning the band to A-443 because wind bands sound brighter and better when they're tuned a little sharp!"
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[JoseLindE4]

It depends on what "dark" means. Some players lack focus in their sound so that it's impossible to sound in tune. They play flarp.

[delano]

[zaferis]

The problem here is layered, like an onion (sorry for the Shrek movie reference).
I think tone and tuning do go hand in hand, in the sense that a good tone, whether on the "bright" side or "dark" side blends into the ensemble sound well and agrees with the tone and tuning of other instruments.
But, there are a number of issues going on at the same time: your tuning center, temperature, individual tendancies, function of your note in the chord, etc.

"I was right intune, the tuner attached to my bell was dead center..." yes, but the tuba went flat in the cold and the clarinets were on the high side-were you then intune?.... were you the root of the chord? or the minor 3rd, major 3rd, 5th or 7th.. did your tuner adjust for that? Are you tuning with the tuner or adjusting to what the ensemble is doing. I think it's pretty rare that a pitch center is stagnant, there are too many variables to expect that; except for at the highest performance levels, in controlled environments (studios/recording facilities)

Some bands, locals, set the center higher or lower for acoustic reasons, go with the flow and learn how to do that with your instrument. IMO you should try to tune to the instruments that have more difficulty in moving their center - oboes, clarinets.. then if you have, lets say, a marimba that is prominent in the piece you should be tuning with that. Can't tell you how many churches I've played in where the Organ was not near 440 - you've got to be flexible.
It's a very different experience playing in a Brass Quintet when you add a marimba or other instrument that can't adjust on the fly.

My advise is to practice with a tuner, or other fixed pitch instrument (piano) often, and use your EARS during ensemble work - adjust to what's going on around you.
IMO "I'm in tune, becasue the tuner infront of me says so.." is a bad approach in enesembles
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[SwissCornetist]

Many thanks for your answers. It's very interesting to see the different views on this topic!