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Roll-out # 4



 
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trumpetjunkie
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,
I avoided roll out # 4 for awhile... (cause it takes long and requires effort and I wasn't real good at it) and concentrated on the roll-ins. I just started doing it... paying special attention to keep the "roll out feel" like Jeff says, (something I didn't strive for before) and I'm real pleased with the results. It is pretty dificult to slur from the double pedals up past middle c without resetting to a more rolled-in feel, but I've just plugged along and it's getting better. I've been cheating by not sluring the partials past high c, but just hitting them... but... considering that I couldn't even hit the notes or slur up to high c from a double pedal like I have been able to do now... I'd say it's coming along. Anyway... anyone else have breakthrough with roll-out # 4?

(Anybody else think it's really boring too? I read a book while I'm doing it....)
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trumpet112002
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the club!!
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oj
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert post an important point ragarding Roll-Out #4.
Look at the first post under the topic, Roll-out is as important as Roll-in!!!

If you make the fish-mouth (or kiss-mouth as Bert say) you can also do an "air hiss" in this position. If you look in a mirror you will see a very small aperture. If you keep the air hissing and slowly roll in while keeping the corners in almost the same position, you will have a roll in postion with a lot of cushion behind.

When I do Roll-Out #4 now, I take it slowly and only to E or G on the first "round". If I get that with a strong top note and and a good snap, I allow myself to take a new "round" and climb higher.

As Jeff says in the text, it is easy to start "cheating" to get out some high notes. But then you don't get into "the club".

Application for "membership" is to be patient

Ole
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HJ
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rolled out feeling IMO has more to do with the inward corners than with the rolled out lips. That is in short the message of this post I wrote on anoher thread. But I am not completely certain of this. I got the book Trumpet Yoga (by Jerome Callet) from Ole, and I know that the roll out concept basically came from that book. I read the book but did not understand it. It is not written very well. But, the idea is great. The thing is though, that as far as I understand it Jerry takes the rolled out LIP up into the high range. So, not only the inward, loose corners, but also the lips, and especially the top lip. I tried this once but this felt like all the wrong attempts I've ever done, and I don't wanna try it again. So, I try to benefit from the forward and inward position of the roll-out, but if I climb up to high G I definitely roll in. I would even like to be able to roll in still more than I do now. The only thing is that I am not 100% sure if this is the way I benefit the most from the roll out #4.

On the other hand the first high G I played in over fifteen years was from roll out #4. And this happened overnight. One day I could only play it up to E top staff and the next day I could play (PLAY, not hit) a high G, that was a big breakthrough.

Bert
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Lex Grantham
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<As Jeff says in the text, it is easy to start "cheating" to get out some high notes. But then you don't get into "the club". >>

Ole:

I love this...and it can be so true. So easy to return to the old way of doing something because it is much easier that way.

Thank you for your contributions.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham
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oj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lex,

You know, I think all of us that are older than Roger Melton (age 15) get a bit "mislead"

Why?

Well, here is a kid with a strong high G that we don't have. So instead of being smart we start "banging away" on the exercise.

Smart practice, in my opinion, is to quickly do Roll-Out #1 and #2 (or just skip them) and concentrate on #3 and #4. By taking several "rounds" on #4, you work on the muscle memory and more repetitions is what really establish a new foundation. If you work dilligently on all the details, a good crescendo, "kicking" the next partial and making a good snap, the exercise will be so much more powefull.

Say your highest strong note is high C - if you on "round" #1 go to E, then on "round" #2 to G, then to high C on "round" #3, you will have done 3 times as many repetition as if you went to high C in one round.

Note: I'm not recommending skipping #1 and #2 if you are new to B.E. - I'm thinking of those who have done it for perhaps a year or more.

Ole


[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2003-12-08 17:47 ]
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Dave Converse
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I do the double pedals roll-out (Callet or BE) I have an extreme pucker with very little bottom lip in the cup (maybe an over-generalization). If we are to keep the roll-out feel on Roll-Out #4, what is the difference from a pucker embouchure? Is Bert correct? Also, what is "cheating?" (slipping into a roll-in?) Thanks. Dave
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mcamilleri
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff clearly states in the instructions for Roll-out #4:

"Always, at the very least, get a rolled-in air hiss sound on the top note (for 3 counts)."

I think this clearly indicates that the end position of Roll-Out #4 is the rolled in position. This is even underlined, so must be VERY important, as not much info is underlined in this book.

Obviously, the rolled-in position is, of itself, not sufficient to build a balanced embouchure, otherwise Jeff would not have included the roll-outs. I am assuming that some element of the roll-out (guess the forward/inward pucker) must be integrated with the rolled in position.

Michael


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[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2003-12-28 20:45 ]
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. The only place "cheating" is mentioned, is the last paragraph on page 72. Roll-Out #4 is big range of motion exercise. When the higher notes start coming out, it's easy to get excited/impatient and fail to continue to maintain the FULL double pedal setting/correct sound at the beginning of each ascension.

In a lesson, if students do this, I stop them immediately. They may be playing up to double C, but it doesn't matter. In the long run, they will progress further if they do the full range of the exercise.

2. If you can continue to ascend in RO#4, without thinking about lip position, then great. But many players reach a wall and start to UNDERshoot. Practicing undershooting is a waste of time. You've got to figure out how to at least get an air hiss on that top note. Usually, that means more rolling in (which by this point of time you should be able to do if you've been doing ALL of the exercises for awhile).

Jeff
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did BE for a while, successfully but not spectacularly. I got a teacher who is a Callet disciple. She has me start my warm up with double pedal tones chromatically down from double pedal C held as long as possible. She has also pointed out that I do to much roll-in too soon. I finally got what she ( and BE) are talking about and I tried playing all the time with the "pout" (not pucker) you get when you play in the normal range with the double pedal feel. I also began doing the pencil exercise as described by Pops( the motion/position is exactly that of the BE roll out).Everything opened up. I can get up to double C regularly ( not with great tone) and I have great endurance. The muscles of my cheeks and across my upper lip used to burn out easily. I guess that I am playing the original Trumpet Yoga embouchure. I don't think I need to do the roll-in but I am keeping that in my back pocket in case I need it down the road
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry,

Like I said, "If you can continue to ascend in RO#4, without thinking about lip position, then great."

But it's a numbers game, and I have to strongly disagree IF you are inferring that a pencil exercise is the great solver of this numbers game. I have to state this for the record, otherwise players read this and start thinking, "Whoa, dude, the pencil exercise! Now I know what to do".

Not in my experience. Do it, or don't do it, but know it for the bag of tricks that it is.

Glad that it seems to have helped you, though!

Jeff
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Dave Converse
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<< If you can continue to ascend in RO#4, without thinking about lip position, then great. But many players reach a wall and start to UNDERshoot. Practicing undershooting is a waste of time. >>

Jeff, after re-reading page 72 (and I hate to admit it, but) I still don't quite understand about ascending without thinking about lip position. When I do this exercise, I keep the roll-out (or "pucker," or "pedal feel") all the way up to the hiss point. I can, however, begin a roll-in while ascending...............I just don't think that's what you mean't for us to do........................right?
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-12-29 18:39, trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Jerry,

Like I said, "If you can continue to ascend in RO#4, without thinking about lip position, then great."

But it's a numbers game, and I have to strongly disagree IF you are inferring that a pencil exercise is the great solver of this numbers game. I have to state this for the record, otherwise players read this and start thinking, "Whoa, dude, the pencil exercise! Now I know what to do".

Not in my experience. Do it, or don't do it, but know it for the bag of tricks that it is.

Glad that it seems to have helped you, though!

Jeff


One thing should be clear to whoever reads the Herald or TPIN etc is that no one is the same and no solution works for everybody. The pencil exercise works for ME. I am not claiming that it works for everybody. Doing the pencil exercise I noticed that the lip position to hold the pencil is the same recommended by my teacher and what comes out of the roll out exercises. I also noticed that the dramatic increase in my range is correlated with my daily use of the pencil exercise. It seems to give MY lower lip the strength to stay in place where it used to "drop out" and lose the note. My approach to learning the trumpet is very pragmatic. If it works, do it and this works for me. I am not a teacher nor do I claim to be. I am just reporting my experience
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

On Roll-Out #4, if you can generate a good air hiss at your can't-play-any-higher point, then we simply don't need to be having this conversation.

If not, then you may need to start "thinking about rolling in more" at that point. The hiss MUST happen, one way or another.

I much prefer an FFF (loud) air hiss to a weenie high note. The air hiss "becomes" a real note much quicker.

Jeff
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Dave Converse
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clearing this up for me, Jeff. Sorry to be so dense (LOL).
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