Interesting late Bach Mt Vernon model 43

[cjl]

There is currently a perhaps interesting Mt Vernon Bach 43 on ebay at the moment.

The shop card is included and lists the first valve as type "Model C" and the other two as (what I most often see) "Model E." The listing mentions that the first slide is not canted as usually seen on Bach trumpets. Is this due to the Model C 1st valve? What is Model C?

The valve casing is not the usual nickel over brass two-piece design. It has the red brass (not sure of the exact composition) on top of yellow brass which I have seen on older Mercedes and Mercury models.

Finally, the bore is marked as MLB. I don't know what that means. It is marked below the second slide, not above the serial number as usual.

Here is the auction link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-Mt-Vernon-New-York-Model-43-MLB-Music-store-owner-and-teacher-owned/153333407483

In case it disappears, I grabbed the photos and put them on my Google photos. (I haven't tried posting photos since Photobucket became unusable -- hope this works as a replacement).
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8ZJoQ8fqki2bpKQ96

rockford, I hope you see this. I am certainly not a Bach expert myself but I have read the Roy Hempley articles and find the study of Bach-made instruments interesting!

-- Joe

[Irving]

Interesting that a 20039 was made in 1954. I have a 15xxx model that was made in 1956. Also the horn was sold on 5/5/54, yet it was completed on 5/15/54. The "B" after ML looks like it was added later.

[cjl]

Now that I think about it, the B could stand for "bronze" being the alloy used in the upper valve casing.

Interesting about the build and sell dates -- good eyes! I didn't even notice.

Almost looks like a Strad bell on a Mercedes body? Don't the Mercedes serial numbers not line up necessarily with the Strad numbering? But Mercedes were usually M bore weren't they?

-- Joe

[65strad]

[OldSchoolEuph]

This is a very interesting horn - perhaps a hybrid, perhaps a factory experiment using trade-in parts (?). The Type E valve porting was what Bach settled on in 1932, eventually making unknown changes that he called "new type E". There were Type A valves (original) and Type B valves (1926), but I have not heard of horns with C or D - though logically there must have been something he classified that way to get to E.

Is it possible the date sold is 64, not 54?

The 20K serial number should be a 1960 instrument, just before the sale. After the 1962 sale, Bach worked as a consulting engineer for Selmer, and was rumored to be running a sort of skunk works at Mt. Vernon until the final closure in 1965.

Regardless, if there was a type C valve pattern, Bach might have been the only one left from 1930 by 54 or 64 who would have known it. This may be a prototype. This is something that really should be looked at by Roy Hempley - he knows more about early Bachs than anyone else alive.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[OldSchoolEuph]

It says original case - but that's a Selmer case. Bulk of the horn is late-1955 to Nov. 1962 design (might have started building those in 54 ???). The serial number just is way too late for the dates on the card.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[amuk]

If I'm not mistaken, Monel valves were not made as early as 1954. I believe they started to come out in the 60's. The info on the card is inconsistant.

[cjl]

[rockford]

All I can offer is a little conjecture on this instrument. I went over this with Roy Hempley a while back and we found that Bach jumped around some with serial numbers, but the numbers and dates generally correlate right up to 19,999. Then, at exactly 20,000, the dates drop back from 1960 to as early as 1952 and skip around quite a bit, then generally return to normal around 20,225. This also coincides with the 1st valve C and 2nd and 3rd valve E notations. My guess is that around 1952 Bach started using higher serial numbers to make it look like he was making more instruments than he actually was. Why? I can only guess. As for this instrument, it’s appearance corresponds to the dates on the cards so it looks legit to me.
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

[cjl]

Thanks!

I never doubted its authenticity, just was curious about the differences. It seemed like Bach had most of his line "standardized" by this time and this one seemed a bit unusual. But it sounds like the type C/type E mix is not new to you, nor is the out-of-sync serial number.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[J. Landress Brass]

The "Model C" for the 1st valve refers to the airway passage change from the top and bottom tube of the slide and the internal porting on the piston. If you look at the pictures the 1st slide is stacked in line much like a Getzen or Martin 1st slide and the ports on the 1st valve are in a straight line not off set like the normal Bach configuration.

I have also seen and owned several Bach instruments in the 20,0XX range that were either made in 1953 or 1954 which were all unique with their valve casing layout and had mismatched valve models in the casing.
_________________
Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com