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Vintage Conn Valve Question



 
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JonathanM
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Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2013
Location: Charleston, SC

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject: Vintage Conn Valve Question Reply with quote

Greetings, All!

I've got some old Conn trumpets's ('30's and '50's) with the cork top, the little rod going through it, bottom springs, and they occasionally (not always) feel like the valve alignment is off (way off). When I check by pulling a slide they're really not off - but that's my first feeling.

I put up a video on Youtube of a vintage Conn 22 and received a question from a player in the Phillipines - he asked this, "...sir i have a problem to my trumpet 22B because the valve is dis align i need your help please..."

I was having fits with my horn recently, searched TH and found one note that suggested making sure the valves were in the right casing. 'Stupid comment', I thought, but guess what? (where's the blush icon when it's really needed) Yep, my 2 was in the 3 hole and... It plays much better with the correct valve in the correct casing.

Still, there are times the valves just seem off (?). I'm sure some of you know what I'm referring to. I've tried thicker valve oil (Hetman 4 actually does great) and this can help but is there something else I'm missing?

Thanks much, folks. Hoping to hear... Oh, and my friend from the Phillipines will be looking as well. 
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Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18037 SterlingSilver+, 18043*, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This info is ONLY about the UP / DOWN valve alignment. Rotational adjust might be needed, or physical changes to the piston / casing ports - those are a whole 'nother story ... and I don't have any experience with it.

First question is whether the valves seem OK in the UP position - hopefully they do because adjusting the UP alignment is usually more complicated, and you can't SEE into them.

For the DOWN position, my experience is that trying to align ONLY by visual inspection is not adequate. It is also necessary to 'test play' the valves and find the 'best position' that gives a consistent 'desired sound' for all of the valve combinations 2 / 1 / 3(yes) / 1&2 / 2&3 / 1&2&3.
On my trumpet. I found the best sounding position is slightly different than the 'best looking'.

Adjustment of the DOWN position on my trumpet is by the thickness of the washers/felts under the valve caps (and they MUST be around the valve stem - the stem itself must tighten against the bottom of the cap). I made DIY washers from various material to get the needed thickness.

note - when you start handling the old felts and cork washers, it's likely one or more of them will be damaged due to their age / brittleness. Don't mess with them if the horn needs to be in good condition soon. Yes, everything can be made good again - but likely not as quickly as you'd hope.

I think my DIY effort made an improvement - but it was time consuming. Many iterations of trying various thicknesses, and finally arriving at a combination that gave overall better results.

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9343
Location: Heart of Dixie

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on how wide the slots are cut in the corks, rotational alignment can become an issue. The wider the slot, the more the guide rod (and valve body) can twist in it. I have an extreme dislike for those bottom-sprung Conn valves - they are way too "loose" and fiddly to get back in their place after oiling. The 1920's 22B had much better "modern" top-sprung valves. I wonder why they changed them?
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georgewinton
New Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2018
Posts: 3
Location: Johnson City, TN

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 1958 Connstellation 28A with cork spacers that are disintegrating. In working with the valve alignment I noticed that there are scribe marks at the base of the valve stems just as the stems emerge from the top valve caps. When the scribe marks are just visible at the top edge of the caps, the 2d valve upward stroke seems to be lined up very well. This position can be checked by removing an adjacent valve and looking at the position with a small pediatric dental mirror and a bright light. I have therefore aligned all the valves in this same position using just the scribe marks with good results.
Hope this helps.
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JonathanM
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2013
Location: Charleston, SC

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think all of the above are good suggestions... Thanks, guys.

These valves (at least the 22 & 12B's from the 30's - 50's) are quite complex. I agree - not sure why they used this style; it's complex and not (obviously) as long-lasting as the metal valves themselves (which are quite awesome). I'd like to know the mindset of the guy (or lady) who derived this system and have just a few moments to share my thoughts of this system with him/her.

Still, good stuff and thanks.
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Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18037 SterlingSilver+, 18043*, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super
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