Body shop lacquer?

[dstpt]

Presuming one could "prep" a raw brass horn properly, have any of you ever taken (or would consider taking) your raw brass trumpet/flugel/cornet to an auto body shop to have it spray lacquered, and if so, would it be the same lacquer that, say, Anderson or any other brass instrument shop would use? A collector mentioned this to me last night when I bought a used raw brass Harrelson Summit One from him. I told him that I'm not fond of the smell that raw brass leaves on my hands, but he said that an auto shop could spray lacquer it for $100! Ha! I may not have it done to this horn, but I may have a raw brass Bach C trumpet bell lacquered soon.

[Halflip]

I doubt that the personnel at a body shop would have the know-how to get smooth, even coverage on all the tight, hard-to-reach places presented by the convoluted tubing of the typical brass instrument. I wouldn't be surprised to see runs, orange peel (bumpy finish), missed spots, etc. if I asked a body shop to lacquer a horn. I would be very disappointed in such a result.

Besides that, I'm not sure body shops use the same kind of epoxy lacquer that brass specialists use when refinishing horns, nor am I sure they bake the lacquer the same way and for the same length of time in order to cure it.

[onlyson]

Had a buddy who worked at a local company called L.A. Sax where they applied automotive paint to saxophones. Really cool finishes. So he did a few trumpets for my band. It was cool on the smaller horns, a pocket trumpet and a cornet. But on a full size horn the feedback was so dead it was nearly impossible to play in an ensemble situation. And unfortunately, those horns were stolen many years ago. They were definitely conversation starters though. The pocket was done in purple metal flake and the cornet was done in a multi-color swirl like a candy cane.
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Del Quadro Grizzly
Yamaha 9335CH
1951 Martin Committee Deluxe #3 Bore
ACB Coppernicus
Couesnon Flugel
Carol Pocket Trumpet

[trumpetmandan]

Speaking with a bit of experience in the business, I would strongly advise against taking your horn to an auto shop to be lacquered! Lacquering a trumpet is difficult; there are many tight spaces and it is not easy to get good, even coverage.

Also, remember that brass lacquer is clear and will not hide any imperfections (I do not know what auto shops use). For example, if you're spraying the lacquer on, and a big piece of dirt or lint lands on the horn, you're stuck with that dirt on your instrument unless you know how to remove it without going through the lacquer.

The prep work that takes place before lacquering a horn is time consuming, skilled work. The time/effort depends on how you want the horn to look after it is lacquered. Do you want it buffed to a mirror finish, or do you just want it good enough to be able to get rid of the raw brass look/smell? Then, it needs to be thoroughly cleaned before it can be sprayed.

All this to say that lacquering a trumpet is not easy and many people do not realize what goes into it when done properly. If you care about the instrument at all, do not take it to an auto shop!

[Tony Scodwell]

Here's a true story. When I was traveling with Doc Severinsen and he was playing my Scodwell USA trumpet at the time, he asked if I could make him a blue flugelhorn with gold trim. Naturally I said yes without realizing what difficulties finding someone to spray a flugel blue would be. Zig Kanstul flat told me he wouldn't *%^#* up his spray gun with a color dye and the best I could do was go to Pep Boys for a spray bomb of auto touch-up lacquer. I picked Chevrolet Suburban Blue as the appropriate color and gold instrument lacquer for the trim and inside the bell. Now Mr. Severinsen won't want to hear that his new "Blugelhorn" is finished with a Chevrolet color so when I gave it to him I dubbed it "Bugatti Blue". Getting back to the original point of using automotive lacquer on horns, after the first trial on some scrap brass it would easily scrape off. I put the trial piece aside and after fully curing for a week, it seemed durable enough to go ahead with the flugelhorn. Heat gun drying and a week to fully cure and it was OK to go. Not as "bullet proof" as proper epoxy instrument lacquer but not bad.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

[dstpt]

[Ed Kennedy]

We experiimented with auto lacquer in my shop in the '90's. We couldn't get it to adhere properly to polished brass, but it would adhere to epoxy lacquer. So we lacquered the horns firrst with clear epoxy and then sprayed automotive paint. You should have seen that blue metalflake bari sax!

[trumpetmandan]

Maybe I misunderstood the OP, are you trying to get your horn sprayed different colors, or are you just looking for a clear lacquer finish?

[cheiden]

[yourbrass]

[Bflatman]

I am struggling to understand any reasoning behind this. From what you say it will cost around 100 dollars for an autoshop to do the work, and I dont think a laquer job from an instrument repair tech will cost much more than this.

A tech would know how to do it and have the correct materials.. If an auto repairer does it wrong then you haver to have it done again, if he damages the instrument you have to get it repaired, if he uses the wrong lacquer you have to have it done again.

The possibilities of having the trumpet damaged are manifold.

I would similarly not take my car to a builders yard to have it resprayed of have a scout leader work on the electrics of my house.

I am not being flippant here but techs are time served they are specialists and deserve to repair instruments rather than letting just anyone work on an instrument. And they really do need the work or next year they wont be trading anymore. Unless you plan to take your car to a musical repair shop to have the tappets worked on.

Imagine taking a case to Judge Judy and trying to sue an auto shop for damage to a trumpet and the judge says why did you think an auto shop would have the skills to repair a musical instrument.

And when you reply, because it was cheap, she will rule against you for not having the good sense to put it in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

[LittleRusty]

There are many valid reasons. Just because one person fails to see them doesn't mean they don't exist.

For instance, the most base things that drives us humans is curiosity. Just trying it to see the results is something I might do if I had a throwaway horn and some cash to waste.

Some of the clues provided by others, like Tony and Ed, might make the chances of success higher.

Finally, there is no guarantee that a shop that doesn't do lacquer for a living will do a better job than a professional auto paint sprayer. And if one continues to work with the auto sprayer, refining materials and technique, one might just end up with someone close who could do a good job.

If the horn was a keeper and I wanted a top notch job I would definitely go to a instrument shop with a good reputation.

[oljackboy]

The clearcoat that is used in all auto body shops is not laquer at all.
It is acrylic enamel. It would surprise me if an evenly-applied coat of this material did not change the way the horn plays.

[dstpt]

[GuidoCorona]

Hello DSTPT, you might want to contact/consult/interview a few dealers and/or body shop specializing in elite brands like Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, and so forth.... They migh be more atune to doing extremely detailed work. Furthermore, it is not axiomatic that all automotive transparent coats are made from the same materials and applied in the same thicknesses... But one thing is probably true:

If an automotive coating could be applied successfully, and did not wreck the acoustic characteristics of your horn, it should be quite protective... Automotive clear coatings are created to sustain much more mechanical and environmental stresses than lacquers for high brass.... When's the last time you drove your trumpet mounted on the hood of your car at 70 MPH in driving rain down a dusty highway.... And then took the critter through an energetic automatic car-wash cycle?!

Ah yes, was forgetting.... Automotive coatings may also protect your horns from nasty ultraviolet radiation A & B.... You know, for those long Summer trips in the sweltering Texas Sun ... You know, holes in the ozone layer and all that jazz *Grins!*


Saluti, G.
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Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo

[dstpt]

[dr_trumpet]

I had an English Besson that I wanted to have a special "flash" for a summer of playing in an amusement park, so had the horn lacquered in black, much like my hero Stan Mark had done with his horn while on the Maynard Ferguson back in the early 1980s.

I played 714 shows in all kinds of conditions on that horn, most either in the heat of the summer or in direct sunlight. By the end of the summer, the lacquer had cracked at the touch points, but the bell and leadpipe and rest of the not-touch points looked great. The horn never failed to get a few comments every show, almost all positive.

By the following year, I was on to other things. Over time, the horn got played less and less until it finally was used no more. I had it until recently when it was stolen in a break and enter with theft. The black lacquer stayed on the bell but had continued to chip in the touch spots.

I think the fellow did the work prepped down to raw brass, but did not polish the brass, which created interesting textures. The horn still played ok, but the required coats of lacquer did deaden the response. It seems to me that most lacquers applied to horns could easily be tinted, but then again, getting the right depth of tinting might require more layers than would be good for the trumpet.

Interesting discussion....

AL
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music