Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:52 am Post subject: Bach Mass in B Minor
I was hired to play the Bach piece which has a lot of moving parts for D trumpet. While playing, my mind started to wonder and I was thinking;
If Bach died somewhere around 1750 and the chromatic trumpet wasn't invented until about 1818, how did he compose the trumpet parts or, how did the original guys play it? _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct.
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Bach Mass in B Minor
trumpetchops wrote:
I was hired to play the Bach piece which has a lot of moving parts for D trumpet. While playing, my mind started to wonder and I was thinking;
If Bach died somewhere around 1750 and the chromatic trumpet wasn't invented until about 1818, how did he compose the trumpet parts or, how did the original guys play it?
That is the reason that the parts are so high. They are written in the clarino register of the natural trumpets of the time. The high writing meant the players (who were rather specialist) could produce all those notes just through the harmonic series of the instrument without requiring valves. It took great levels of skill and control and the art more or less died out by the middle of the classical period, hence the classical/romantic rep being far lower and more restricted to the wider intervals towards the bottom end of the harmonic series.
You will notice that (in the Bach) the higher the part goes, the more melodic the writing becomes, due to the closer harmonics in that register. The lower (say the 3rd) part tends to sit lower and you will see that the intervals are wider and serve a more 'harmonic' rather than 'melodic' approach.
Hope this helps.
PS. There are some true experts on this site who can provide much greater detail and historical context to my very simplistic explanation.
Last edited by LSOfanboy on Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
This recording is the only one I know of which uses real natural trumpets without the vent holes most players use.
How do they do it? Practice I guess! I do know that these guys use very large mouthpieces 18-19 mm in diameter, which makes it easier to bend notes into tune.
The modern pippilo trumpet is about 1/3 the length of a baroque trumpet.
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1210 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject:
Another, but still as well known a piece, played by the same band!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJ-xcblCMo _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural
Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Posts: 643 Location: Givat Shmuel, Israel
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:22 pm Post subject:
Maybe this German trumpeter has come up with the answer. After all there is the famous painting of Reiche with his coiled trumpet. What if he did use hand stopping as demonstrated here. The coiled trumpet makes it possible:
Maybe this German trumpeter has come up with the answer. After all there is the famous painting of Reiche with his coiled trumpet. What if he did use hand stopping as demonstrated here. The coiled trumpet makes it possible:
The instrument in the video is nothing like the trumpet/horn in Reiche's portrait - apart from being coiled.
The Reiche trumpet/horn has the bell at more or less 180 degrees to the mouthpiece which would make hand stopping difficult. The instrument in the video is only at 90 degrees to the mouthpiece.
I think the playing by Jean François Madeuf in the b minor mass and 2nd Brandenburg on the above mentioned recordings tells us everything.
Unfortunately we do not all have his - or Gottfried Reiche’s - talent.
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1210 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:18 pm Post subject:
there is also a theory that trumpets used to play "music", as opposed to the military use for playing signals and fanfares, had a little slide between the instruments "corpus" and the mouthpiece. Some historical instruments have shown scratches or grooves where this slide could have been inserted. Even though missing now.
Some paintings from the time shows players holding the trumpet with one hand, and the other holding the mouthpiece, which would maybe serve as evidence for this... _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:06 am Post subject:
While there is an amount of primary source information, there is also a large amount of speculation about the hows of baroque performance practices in Bach's time. Unless we get a time machine, we will never know definitively about some aspects of how they played.
The guilds system of the day means much of the knowledge was closely held by members and only passed on to their apprentices. Following the dissolution of the guild of kettledrummers and trumpeters 'in perpetuity', much of the knowledge and traditions was lost.
But we CAN see from illustrations and paintings how players got about doing their job (if we assume these are accurate) There are writings about some players, there is evidence many died quite young (was it the trumpet, or the beers post performance?), there are writings about the use of vent holes predating Bach, and a few treatises regarding playing techniques. And the list goes on.
What we can say for sure is that the authentic performance movement has many niches, collective beliefs and often very strongly held views.
And for the record I use a 3 hole system instrument with a reasonably close copy of a Satzburg mouthpiece. (flat rim, hemispherical cup, sharp angle into the very large throat, stepped backbore). Truth be known, it is easy to play alongside 4 hole and no hole players, like I did on Saturday.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1210 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:35 am Post subject:
What we CAN assume is that those guys could really play!
Comparing to the writing for for instance the violin, one must assume that the composers wrot music that the violinists could really play. The same must apply for the trumpeters.
There are accounts of players-at least in britain- that used some kind of ointment with painkilling properties on their lips, and that the playing career ended quite early, sometime in their 40’s-early 50’s.
I remember seeing a biography on the trumpeter Valentine Snow somewhere... _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural
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