Common Concepts across Different Brands

O00Joe · Last edited by O00Joe on Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:42 am; edited 2 times in total

I thought it would be interesting to identify concepts that appear in different mouthpiece lines that are similar in purpose and execution.

Monette "Slap", Stomvi "Flex", Stork Studio Master, Curry 600, Jet Tone
The cup's initial shoulders are widened and the throat entrance narrowed to aid in efficiency and clarity. Usually for commercial and lead style mouthpieces. Lower Alpha angle, higher Beta angle.

Curry BC, Pickett BC, Hammond ML, Stork Vacchiano, Bach B, Parke
The traditional C shaped cup is blended with elements of the V shaped cup to create an orchestral mouthpiece.

The Curry TC & TF, Frost TC & TF, Schilke Symphony Series F, Reeve C2J
Cornet and Flügelhorn cups made for use on trumpet with shortened backbore length to aid with soft and dark sound production. Also known as a "fluffy" mouthpiece.

That is just what I came up with on the spot, what would add or correct? What concepts would you add?
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

brassmusician · Veteran Member Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273

wouldn't the lead/commercial style mouthpieces have higher alpha angles not lower?
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Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL

O00Joe · Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:57 pm Post subject:

Typically lead pieces have higher alpha angles (more gradual curve from rim to cup) but in the specific models mentioned the alpha angle is decreased (rim comes closer to dropping straight down into cup).

Higher alpha angle: Schilke 6A4A, "less chop room"
Lower alpha angle: Bach 7C, "more chop room"
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

tptguy · Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:13 pm Post subject:

Endurance ends the second the lips collapse forward. For most players, the extra strain of upper register playing more quickly drives the lips forward. All other things being equal, the more gradual the angle from inner rim edge to primary cup the more quickly the lips are driven forward - and the more quickly endurance ends.

scottfsmith · Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject:

Does anyone know the history of these shapes? Heres my guess based on limited designs I have seen.

Monette SLAP: See Courtois Arban cornet mouthpieces, circa 1870. You can "feel" a low-alpha high-beta mouthpiece with your finger, it curves more sharply where the "steep" alpha-slope meets the "flat" beta; running a finger into the bowl the transition will be obvious. The Courtois Arban 5 has the same feel as a Monette SLAP.

Bach B: See Besson 4/5 circa 1920. I think the Besson may be more extreme, more shallow cup and wider in the throat. This shape is probably earlier but the earliest example I have seen is 20's.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

O00Joe · Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:49 pm Post subject:

Interesting, I would definitely like to hear more about the history of mouthpiece design.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

O00Joe · Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:24 pm Post subject:

Added Curry 600 and Reeves C2J to the original post
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

John Mohan · Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:13 am Post subject:

I think you can add most of the Jet-Tone mouthpieces to the first category as they tend have cups that drip fairly quickly off the rim (low alpha angle) to resolve in shallow, flatter bottomed cups (high beta angle).

To those who are confused about the the shallower cupped commercial mouthpieces mentioned having lower (more U shaped just off the rim) instead of higher (more V shaped just off the rim) alpha angles when it is known that higher alpha angles tend to make high notes easier, the idea is that by having a lower alpha angle, there is still room for the lips to vibrate even if they are a bit swollen from extended rigorous playing.

Examples of commercial mouthpieces that have both high alpha and high beta angles are the Schilke 6A4A and 14A4A. It is their high alpha angle that causes the situation for most players where they can sound good on one of these mouthpiece for about 5 minutes (or maybe 5 seconds) if at all. As soon as their lips swell in the least, it's all over.

Extreme examples include the various Maynard Ferguson mouthpieces that for all intents and purposes don't even have a measurable alpha angle (or perhaps can be considered to be nothing but alpha angle) because the radical design:

https://i.postimg.cc/jjgstLNx/MF-Mouthpiece.jpg
MF Mouthpiece

Here's a scan I put together comparing a Jet-Tone (very low alpha angle, very high beta angle) commercial-type mouthpiece to the classic Purviance 4*K4 (high alpha angle, high beta angle) mouthpiece to help visualize the differences:

https://i.postimg.cc/0jZnBRFB/Jet-Tone-T3-A-vs-Purviance-4-Star-K4.jpg
Jet-Tone T3 (red) vs Purviance 4*K4 (green)

The GR Mouthpiece website has an excellent tutorial section called GR Mouthpieces School that explains alpha angles, beta angles, and all the other measurable components of mouthpiece shape and design.

https://www.grmouthpieces.com/category-s/271.htm

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

O00Joe · Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:47 am Post subject:

Excellent, thank you for the info. I added it above. That's the exact kind of discussion I am hoping to produce with this topic.

Jet Tone is the brand I probably know about the least. I'll definitely look into it. If there are specific models that cultivate the low alpha, high beta design I'll specify that.
_________________
1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68

mrhappy · Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:25 am Post subject: