Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Adam Rapa
HERMOKIWI wrote:
LSOfanboy wrote:
On an interesting side note; this is one video that, in my opinion, shows Rapa a little outside his comfort zone and, dare I say, a little overshadowed by Phil Cobb. https://youtu.be/LR_4VEuLNA8
On what basis would one come to this conclusion? They each were playing a different part. By definition, different parts don't sound the same so there's no telling how things would sound if they switched the parts around. Plus, in the video it's sometimes difficult to tell who you're hearing/who is playing the dominant part. They all sounded great to me. Rapa didn't look even the least bit uncomfortable.
Two things:
I am afraid we lost LSOfanboy which is a pity, he was original, well informed and made interesting posts which often did not get a good reception here.
Second, I have to agree with LSOfanboy, I think Rapa could not get his sound right for this kind of music. And Philip Cobb was probably extra motivated and played the windows out of their frame. Nothing wrong with mr. Rapa, we have to admire his courage but style is style.
Now as to spit valves and nerves, let us assume for a moment it was indeed an act of nervous energy release when Adam blew the spit out several times within a few measures (meaning we're assuming he wasn't just chasing some obstinate spit out of his horn that he could hear bubbling around that didn't quite make it to the mic and onto the recording). If it was a sign of nervous energy, SO WHAT?!?! Hey, Adam was also shifting back and forth, side to side on his feet during parts of the performance and that was possibly a release of some nervous energy as well. Should we take his trumpet away? Send him to his room for a time-out with no toys?
In my view, musicians and other performers should not judged by their nervousness, fear or stage-fright. They should be judged by their performance. And if they happened to be a bit nervous and still rose to the occasion, well that's even more impressive to me.
I think most would compliment you for the gracious idea of simply focusing on a player's results. With that being said, a question surfaces : how will somone be able to perform properly with some visible stress going on. A few months ago, I stumbled onto Martha Algerich's Rach. concerto ('79) where she comes off as cool as a tiger but leaving people speechless with her execution. Not that everyone has to be like that, but it's safe to assume that a vigorous outward persona will find it's way to color a person's phrasing, musical sense, and the rest.
A trumpet is a cool instrument but also one of the toughest with all the vibration coming from the player himself. Somehow, it seems difficult to take in a performance, be overwhelmed, if there a hyper state of mind going on underneath.
Last edited by rothman on Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Now as to spit valves and nerves, let us assume for a moment it was indeed an act of nervous energy release when Adam blew the spit out several times within a few measures (meaning we're assuming he wasn't just chasing some obstinate spit out of his horn that he could hear bubbling around that didn't quite make it to the mic and onto the recording). If it was a sign of nervous energy, SO WHAT?!?! Hey, Adam was also shifting back and forth, side to side on his feet during parts of the performance and that was possibly a release of some nervous energy as well. Should we take his trumpet away? Send him to his room for a time-out with no toys?
In my view, musicians and other performers should not judged by their nervousness, fear or stage-fright. They should be judged by their performance. And if they happened to be a bit nervous and still rose to the occasion, well that's even more impressive to me.
I think most would compliment you for that particular idea of simply focusing on a player's results. With that being said, a question surfaces : how the player will be able to perform properly with some visible stress going on. A few months ago, I stumbled onto Martha Algerich's Rachmaninov concerto ('79) where she comes off as cool as a tiger while leaving people speechless with her execution. Not that everyone has to be like that, but one can ask if it is safe to assume an outward persona will find it's way into a person's playing and affect his phrasing, musical sense, and the rest.
A trumpet is a cool instrument but also one of the toughest with all the vibration coming from the player himself. Somehow, I cannot find a way to take in a performance, be overwhelmed, if there a hyper state of mind going on underneath.
Short of ESP, how would you know for certain that there was "a hyper state of mind going on underneath?" How do you know for certain that Martha Algerich wasn't fooling you? How do you know when there is "a hyper state of mind going on underneath" with, for example, Tom Harrell.
Are you able to separate the music from your observations of the physical characteristics/movements of the player? if not, why not?
What is your criteria to authoritatively distinguish movement that, in fact, absolutely qualifies the player's underlying state of mind as not "hyper" and movement that, in fact, absolutely qualifies the player's underlying state of mind as "hyper?"
Where does "hyper begin? What is the threshold? What separates "hyper" from "positive energy being expressed" and "showmanship?"
Short of ESP, how would you know for certain that there was "a hyper state of mind going on underneath?" How do you know for certain that Martha Algerich wasn't fooling you? How do you know when there is "a hyper state of mind going on underneath" with, for example, Tom Harrell.
Are you able to separate the music from your observations of the physical characteristics/movements of the player? if not, why not?
What is your criteria to authoritatively distinguish movement that, in fact, absolutely qualifies the player's underlying state of mind as not "hyper" and movement that, in fact, absolutely qualifies the player's underlying state of mind as "hyper?"
Where does "hyper begin? What is the threshold? What separates "hyper" from "positive energy being expressed" and "showmanship?"
A lot of questions. You're overcomplicating things..in terms of basic observational common sense. For ex. theres no way Martha could be fooling anyone, simply because her command of the instrument is without peer. I'm sure you're familiar with Verve..Wes Montgomery alternate takes soloing, to know immediately how relaxed, effortless he played. Consider, that there are very few videos of Art Tatum, but the same holds true, based on what is heard, known of him.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:09 am Post subject:
rothman wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Now as to spit valves and nerves, let us assume for a moment it was indeed an act of nervous energy release when Adam blew the spit out several times within a few measures (meaning we're assuming he wasn't just chasing some obstinate spit out of his horn that he could hear bubbling around that didn't quite make it to the mic and onto the recording). If it was a sign of nervous energy, SO WHAT?!?! Hey, Adam was also shifting back and forth, side to side on his feet during parts of the performance and that was possibly a release of some nervous energy as well. Should we take his trumpet away? Send him to his room for a time-out with no toys?
In my view, musicians and other performers should not judged by their nervousness, fear or stage-fright. They should be judged by their performance. And if they happened to be a bit nervous and still rose to the occasion, well that's even more impressive to me.
I think most would compliment you for the gracious idea of simply focusing on a player's results. With that being said, a question surfaces : how will somone be able to perform properly with some visible stress going on. A few months ago, I stumbled onto Martha Algerich's Rach. concerto ('79) where she comes off as cool as a tiger but leaving people speechless with her execution. Not that everyone has to be like that, but it's safe to assume that a vigorous outward persona will find it's way to color a person's phrasing, musical sense, and the rest.
A trumpet is a cool instrument but also one of the toughest with all the vibration coming from the player himself. Somehow, it seems difficult to take in a performance, be overwhelmed, if there a hyper state of mind going on underneath.
Certainly when a performer makes it look easy and seems to be completely relaxed while doing what most consider to be impossible, that can add to the impressiveness (whether that seeming ease is real or a great act).
And, I suppose if a performer is shaking like a leaf and clearly in a state of being emotionally distraught, this could distract an audience from fully enjoying the performance, no matter how virtuosic it be. But to take the conversation to the other extreme, in this day and age I am sure we could take the performance of a piano virtuoso, sample and transfer it perfectly, and create a Player Piano version of it. Yet I don't think Carnegie Hall is going to sell a lot of seats if all that is on stage is that Player Piano reproducing perfectly the performance of said piano virtuoso. Audiences want to see and connect with the performer. They want to see that bead of sweat form on his or her brow. A machine can give a perfect performance. It takes a human to ennoble it. And I think a bit of nervousness and a touch of stage fright, properly channeled, can add to the positive energy of a performance.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:34 am Post subject:
rothman wrote:
A lot of questions. You're overcomplicating things..in terms of basic observational common sense. For ex. theres no way Martha could be fooling anyone, simply because her command of the instrument is without peer. I'm sure you're familiar with Verve..Wes Montgomery alternate takes soloing, to know immediately how relaxed, effortless he played. Consider, that there are very few videos of Art Tatum, but the same holds true, based on what is heard, known of him.
This whole premise is beyond ridiculous, and dragging Wes Montgomery or Martha Argerich into it doesn't make a lick of difference. Adam Rapa played some fantastic trumpet in that Maria clip. It's a bit overdone for my personal preferences, but that's neither here nor there - my tastes are not a reflection on the quality of his performance, and his use of the water key is most certainly also not. He was playing a tune associated with Maynard Ferguson at a trumpet festival - of course it's a bit over the top. If you don't like his playing, fine, suit yourself, but I don't think you've got a legitimate musical complaint to back up your disliking, so are trying to make a big deal of how he looks when he plays. Let's take a step out of the shallow end of the pool...
Last edited by Steve A on Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:46 am Post subject:
Wes Montgomery was a monster guitar player who did play effortless BUT he had a ton of fun up there. Smiling often, and sometimes playing with a cigarette in his mouth.
I am now picturing Michelangelo painting with a big smile, a little bit of movement in his feet, and a cigarette in his mouth. Now that would make the painting even more cool. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs
Wes Montgomery was a monster guitar player who did play effortless BUT he had a ton of fun up there. Smiling often, and sometimes playing with a cigarette in his mouth.
I am now picturing Michelangelo painting with a big smile, a little bit of movement in his feet, and a cigarette in his mouth. Now that would make the painting even more cool.
It's more rare by the day to hear a word spoken on him, unfortunately. I realize some are less than comfortable, or appalled, but in terms of maturity, attitude, and presence, a good deal can be learned from some of the older school generation imo..
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject:
theslawdawg wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
bike&ed wrote:
Has LSOfanboy been gone since March, or did he delete his more recent posts?
I haven't seen any posts by him since.
It's really too bad. He has a lot to offer the community.
What happened to him?
Well, delano commented about it already:
delano wrote:
I am afraid we lost LSOfanboy which is a pity, he was original, well informed and made interesting posts which often did not get a good reception here.
That his posts "often did not get a good reception here" is part of it. He presented good points and excellent helpful information. At times there was an air of condescension (that was probably not intentional) that ruffled a few feathers of some members who then basically drove him away. At least, that's my outsider opinion and personal experience in posting back and forth with him.
Regardless, I agree with delano. I enjoyed reading his posts and learning from them and hope he returns. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
My contribution to all this is that it's flawed at best to base how someone is on what others have said-defining someone as a jerk on hearsay/gossip isn't a good idea. Musicians can be some of the most "gossipy" and insecure people-often such criticism can be the product of the gossiper's agenda, inexperience or insecurities. I believe it's best to take such gossip with a grain of salt and judge based on one's own experiences. _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:31 pm Post subject:
Bill Ortiz wrote:
My contribution to all this is that it's flawed at best to base how someone is on what others have said-defining someone as a jerk on hearsay/gossip isn't a good idea. Musicians can be some of the most "gossipy" and insecure people-often such criticism can be the product of the gossiper's agenda, inexperience or insecurities. I believe it's best to take such gossip with a grain of salt and judge based on one's own experiences.
Who is gossiping about "how someone is"? _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Just a followup question for anyone that observed the same thing : As the chart progresses along on Maria, the Cadenza ( 3: 26 ) begins - with an interval jump, and the High F is held out....
Did it startle anyone to catch this on the 'low' side, well into the tune..at that point ? With within his range. With a preference for modern custom made horns, perhaps it had less to do with him, and simply a result of all of the extra tubing in that particular horn.
Just a followup question for anyone that observed the same thing : As the chart progresses along on Maria, the Cadenza ( 3: 26 ) begins - with an interval jump, and the High F is held out....
Did it startle anyone to catch this on the 'low' side, well into the tune..at that point ? With within his range. With a preference for modern custom made horns, perhaps it had less to do with him, and simply a result of all of the extra tubing in that particular horn.
Thanks
You're beating a dead horse. Artistic license is artistic license and artistic license is an entitlement. It doesn't require an explanation. You either dig it or you don't. Obviously, where this performance is concerned, you don't dig it. We've all heard you. We don't agree with you. There's nothing left to discuss.
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:22 am Post subject:
this is super dumb
jazz players all the time play with the pitch. That is one the main examples of "artistic license". How does anyone not get that most basic fundamental? _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com www.youtube.com/lipshurt
this is super dumb
jazz players all the time play with the pitch. That is one the main examples of "artistic license". How does anyone not get that most basic fundamental?
Lipshurt, no soloist on earth would play a cadenza, especially a trumpet player, and purposely play Flat on a (sustained) high note.
Find 'one' example of Doc or MF or Charlie Parker doing that on any performance.
Last edited by rothman on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:53 am Post subject:
Let's get to the point here:
In the view of most listeners who've written here, he sounds great in this clip. rothman, are you really trying to argue that he doesn't? Does a moment of being under pitch or frequent water key emptying really make that much difference?
Is it a perfect performance? No, clearly not. I don't know him, but I doubt he'd argue with that. Is it a good performance, and one that many fantastic trumpet players would dearly love to be able to replicate? Yes, without a doubt.
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