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Voltrane
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Paris (France)
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 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:09 pm Post subject: Puccini Messa di Gloria |
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Hello,
I am supposed to play the first trumpet part of the Puccini Messa di Gloria in March (amateur orchestra but quite good).
As there is a lot of “in Eb” in the part I wonder which horn to use to play it: Eb, Bb, C?
If you have already played it, what horn have you used?
And by the way, the part does not seem very difficult, but is there any trap?
Any tip welcome!
Many thanks! |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Puccini Messa di Gloria |
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| Voltrane wrote: | Hello,
I am supposed to play the first trumpet part of the Puccini Messa di Gloria in March (amateur orchestra but quite good).
As there is a lot of “in Eb” in the part I wonder which horn to use to play it: Eb, Bb, C?
If you have already played it, what horn have you used?
And by the way, the part does not seem very difficult, but is there any trap?
Any tip welcome!
Many thanks! |
The score I have has a part in C. For me, Puccini seems to want a big trumpet sound, though with the almost chamber orchestra setting of the orchestration, I might lean toward either a C trumpet. A larger orchestral Eb might also be good.
From a guy who loves the Ravel Piano Concerto in G trumpet part on a G1L4 with a big symphonic mouthpiece and the large bell, and believes "play what you sound best on and are most comfortable with"....
AL
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Voltrane
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Paris (France)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:52 am Post subject: |
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Thanks!
The C was my first feeling but the part I was given (from Carlus-Verlag,Stuttgart) is mainly "in Eb" with a few "in F" or "in G", so in fact a part for an Eb trumpet with only a few transpositions. That's why I though it was may be more practical with an Eb. And may be Puccini was expecting an Eb sound but what was an Eb sound at his time ?...
I own an Eb Selmer Radial, good horn but not a "large orchestral one"... Hence my hesitation!
As I own a good Bach 239, may be it is the best compromise.
May I ask you where I can found a reliable part for a C trumpet?
Thanks again. |
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Voltrane wrote: | Thanks!
The C was my first feeling but the part I was given (from Carlus-Verlag,Stuttgart) is mainly "in Eb" with a few "in F" or "in G", so in fact a part for an Eb trumpet with only a few transpositions. That's why I though it was may be more practical with an Eb. And may be Puccini was expecting an Eb sound but what was an Eb sound at his time ?...
I own an Eb Selmer Radial, good horn but not a "large orchestral one"... Hence my hesitation!
As I own a good Bach 239, may be it is the best compromise.
May I ask you where I can found a reliable part for a C trumpet?
Thanks again. |
The best advice I can give is that you should learn to transpose.
If your transposition is slow then practice the part until one of two things happens:
1) You know the part so well you don't really need to 'read' it
2) Your transposition becomes good enough to transpose in real time
As a British player, I would play the whole part on Bb trumpet. Eb and F are very reasonable transpositions on the Bb trumpet.
Transposing into G only comes up very rarely and I would certainly make sure I looked at the part beforehand so I was not caught out. If (in some freak circumstance) a part for trumpet in G came up on a session and required immediate playing then I would use an Eb trumpet and transpose up a major third (as if transposing a D trumpet part on Bb trumpet). Given any amount of time to prepare, however, and I would make sure I had it learnt on Bb trumpet.
If you play a lot of C trumpet then that would be the most sensible bet I would imagine; given both the setting and the transposition involved.
All the best |
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Voltrane
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Location: Paris (France)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Hi LSO,
of course you are absolutely right but it is the first time I have to play in such environment with such a kind of score, so I am not used to transpose "on sight" and I doubt my memory is good enough to play without reading.
For the respect of the people I play with I cannot risk to have any distraction due to sight transposing mistakes or memory troubles! Safety first...
Yes, as this kind of opportunity seems to appear, it is for sure worth to learn to transpose on sight but it needs time before you can do that "live" in a secure way.
Regards |
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Gabrieli
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Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 62
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:58 am Post subject: |
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A guy in Berlin has made a version for chamber orchestra -just one trumpet
Here is the trumpet part and it is all for c trumpet
https://www.emmaus.de/ma/noten/puccini_messa/trp.pdf
I don't know if this is exactly the same as the original first part but quite probably. I guess you can compare it with the Carus part and pencil in any alterations.
I played it many years ago on the C trumpet and certainly a big trumpet (C or Bb) will be better than a smallish Eb.
Enjoy the gig. |
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Voltrane
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Location: Paris (France)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:41 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Gabrieli,
this score seems quite good. I will check in detail.
When I see this, I really think a C or a Bb is the best. In the original Carus "in Eb", an Eb would have been played a lot in the low register...
With a C or a Bb we are "full in the staff"!
I think the case is closed.
Thanks to everyone.
Regards |
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| Voltrane wrote: | Hi LSO,
of course you are absolutely right but it is the first time I have to play in such environment with such a kind of score, so I am not used to transpose "on sight" and I doubt my memory is good enough to play without reading.
For the respect of the people I play with I cannot risk to have any distraction due to sight transposing mistakes or memory troubles! Safety first...
Yes, as this kind of opportunity seems to appear, it is for sure worth to learn to transpose on sight but it needs time before you can do that "live" in a secure way.
Regards |
There is one simple answer: practice your part.
If you practice it you will overcome the difficulties. That is the only 'safe' option.
Looking for a shortcut is, in my opinion, actually the least respectful approach to your colleagues. The best is to be well practiced in advance (as you should, where possible, always be).
All the best |
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Voltrane
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Paris (France)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:07 am Post subject: |
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LSO,
thanks for your opinion.
Once again, in the long run you are completely right. No doubt.
But I have a short term problem to solve with this part.
It is not the only thing I have to prepare (many others: big band, R&B group, jazz quintet, Neruda Eb concerto!) and would never be ready enough to sight transpose safely Puccini.
But yes, I will work on this for the future!
Trust me, I would have been very happy to use the very nice Carus score "like that" but currently way too risky for my small brain (' ')
Regards. |
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Voltrane
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Location: Paris (France)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:22 am Post subject: |
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LSO,
by the way you gave me an idea:
I will work with the "shortcut" transposed part and the Carus part alternatively.
A good way to verify they are the same and a good way to start transposing.
Regards |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 2533
Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Voltrane wrote: | Thanks!
The C was my first feeling but the part I was given (from Carlus-Verlag,Stuttgart) is mainly "in Eb" with a few "in F" or "in G", so in fact a part for an Eb trumpet with only a few transpositions. That's why I though it was may be more practical with an Eb. And may be Puccini was expecting an Eb sound but what was an Eb sound at his time ?...
I own an Eb Selmer Radial, good horn but not a "large orchestral one"... Hence my hesitation!
As I own a good Bach 239, may be it is the best compromise.
May I ask you where I can found a reliable part for a C trumpet?
Thanks again. |
http://imslp.eu/files/imglnks/euimg/1/10/IMSLP427437-PMLP277945-Puccini-Messa_di_Gloria.pdf
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Voltrane
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Location: Paris (France)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Many thanks Dr_trumpet!
And by the way it is now the time to wish to everyone an happy new year!
Regards. |
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stumac
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Location: Flinders, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Written in 1880, would Puccini had in mind the old Alto trumpet in Eb?
Regards, Stuart. |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Voltrane wrote: | Many thanks Dr_trumpet!
And by the way it is now the time to wish to everyone an happy new year!
Regards. |
Happy New Year, and best of luck with a great performance on this work.
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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MalinTrumpet
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Joined: 15 Sep 2004
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Location: Delray Beach, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone can learn to transpose. You just have to do it.
Once I became proficient in transposition I began to enjoy practicing it.
Years ago I had a job as a costumed trumpeter for weddings. Our job was to play fanfares every time a guest arrived. My friend Lane, the other trumpeter, was also a Vacchiano student. Our aim was to transpose each fanfare into the lowest possible key making our job as painless as possible. We rarely got above the middle of the staff.
I’ve often shared how transposition helped me as a middle school band director because I was able to demonstrate all my students’ parts with my trumpet from the podium.
LCM |
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dr_trumpet
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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Location: Cope, IN
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| MalinTrumpet wrote: |
I’ve often shared how transposition helped me as a middle school band director because I was able to demonstrate all my students’ parts with my trumpet from the podium.
LCM |
As part of their lessons, my music education majors learn to transpose every part in the band and orchestra in a score to the trumpet. It helps them demonstrate parts, and gives them a chance to hear parts in transposition better. Performance majors learn those and all trumpet transposition from the standard orchestral repertoire.
Great things I learned early in life, and have made use of VERY much!
AL
_________________
Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Voltrane
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Paris (France)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, all right, ok, you win! My first resolution for 2019 is to learn transposition!!! |
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Dayton
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My first resolution for 2019 is to learn transposition!!! |
You'll be glad that you did. A few years back, the orchestra I was playing with at the time was preparing for a performance with a vocalist. Just before the performance she decided that she wasn't confident about one of the pieces in the program, and asked to switch it for an easier piece she was more familiar with.
Our librarian rushed out the parts, and my section mates and I had about ten minutes to review an unfamiliar piece in F before performing it. I was confident of my ability to transpose the part, which made those ten minutes a lot less stressful....
Good luck! |
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Voltrane
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:48 am Post subject: |
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But already a new dilemna : by keys, by intervals, by numbers?
Ah, life is not easy  |
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Andy Del
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Voltrane wrote: | But already a new dilemna : by keys, by intervals, by numbers?
Ah, life is not easy |
It isn’t a dilemma at all, but part of the process. For me, it is a mixture of concepts...
First is the interval, such as up a tone. Then it is most definitely the key. So I am thinking of the interval, playing the key of X. Very rarely do I think go to numbers, although thinking of arpeggios, or scales also helps, such as play a X major arpeggio or this is the top of a X minor scale.
With time, you develop a much morn free wheeling attitude to notes and may find reading as written more challenging then transposing!
Cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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