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fitzy64 Regular Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2018 Posts: 30 Location: College
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:37 pm Post subject: Questions |
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Hello again,
Before the Questions:
I'm not sure if there is a forum post quota or anything but I hope I'm not doing anything bad by posting a lot in this forum.
Anyway, I've noticed that when my normal playing reaches two criteria:
1. ability to chromatic down to pedal G and maintain the tone
2. ability to play C scale at pp and sustain high C at pp without tone going bad or falling off the note...
...I am able to hit notes in the areas of Double G and Double A fairly well.
I was wondering if this is just coincidence or if I'm onto something, something to do to make those criteria more consistent, and something to reduce the need for those criteria.
Thanks,
Fitz _________________ Somewhere University, Southeast US
10 Years Experience
1967 Bach Stradivarius 37
Yamaha Eric Miyashiro 1 |
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deanoaks Regular Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2015 Posts: 75 Location: US
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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The reason for this is fairly simple. It has to do with the balance between lip tension and air support.
When you play in the low and pedal registers at a reasonable dynamic with the low register beginning approx E sitting at the bottom of the staff, you are developing aperature control and strength. You have to blow a large amount of air volume to get the note to speak and a large and specific amount of lip tension to prevent the embouchure from blowing open.
When you play softly throughout the instrument, you are training yourself to play with a controlled and small aperature but applying a different set of muscles than when you are playing in the pedal range.
When you combine these exercises the result you get is a strong and precise embochure. The way to play high notes well is to find that proper lip air balance and the higher you go, the more narrow your margin for error becomes. Rather than the air volume you are generating in the low register, you are generating air velocity which also wants to blow the aperature apart but with proper training (most easily accomplished in the lower register or through soft playing) the upper register is played with more ease. The more you practice these things, the more you will engrain successful habits but there is not a substitute for low and slow exercises.
Does that make sense? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3302 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:25 am Post subject: |
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deanoaks wrote: | ... When you combine these exercises the result you get is a strong and precise embochure. ... |
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And that 'strong and precise' embouchure is what you have when -
1. ability to chromatic down to pedal G and maintain the tone
2. ability to play C scale at pp and sustain high C at pp without tone going bad or falling off the note...
Various 'long note' practice routines is the physical training to strengthen your embouchure to maintain that ability for a longer playing time.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Questions |
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fitzy64 wrote: | Hello again,
Before the Questions:
I'm not sure if there is a forum post quota or anything but I hope I'm not doing anything bad by posting a lot in this forum.
............
Fitz |
Nope, there is no limit on posts here, especially if you’re either asking legitimate questions or making reasonable comments. Just bear in mind that sometimes listening (or in the case of on-line discussions, reading) can be as valuable as speaking (writing).
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | When you play in the low and pedal registers at a reasonable dynamic with the low register beginning approx E sitting at the bottom of the staff, you are developing aperature control and strength. You have to blow a large amount of air volume to get the note to speak and a large and specific amount of lip tension to prevent the embouchure from blowing open. |
First; its air FLOW you are describing. Not air "volume". (The air "volume" is the flow x the duration. Flow is an instantaneous quantity and does not relate to note length.)
Also, pedals do require control of the lip aperture but they do not require much effort. Thus they really are not a strengthening exercise.
The pedals also can be played softly and in that case do not require a large flow of air. Just like any note, the flow varies depending on the loudness. But the flow resistance of pedals is less both at the aperture AND in the instrument. |
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deanoaks Regular Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2015 Posts: 75 Location: US
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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I do not care to defend my point but I feel I need to at least respond. I do believe you have completely missed what I am trying to say and stand by my statement. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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It's not that I don't understand your point, it's that I don't agree with it. The effort at the embouchure does not change much with increasing dynamic. This has nothing to do with blowing the lips apart. The rising pressure in the instrument with increasing loudness helps prevent this from occurring. You're not blowing into free air, you are blowing into the tone in the instrument and the instrument impedance.
As an example, I can play pedals almost continuously even four hours if I wanted to. The higher the note the less endurance one has. That is because the higher the note the more embouchure effort that is required. if you are using a lot of embouchure effort to play pedals you're going to run out of effort pretty quickly on higher notes. Regardless of loudness. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | You're not blowing into free air, you are blowing into the tone in the instrument and the instrument impedance. |
This short statement, all by itself cuts to ribbons any theories regarding "faster air for range".
It isn't that a tongue position or movement can not enhance range. In fact it just may be helpful to change the tongue position in the mouth depending upon register. However the sheer great "impedance" as pointed out by Kalijah works like a veritable "brick wall". Unlike say whistling or flute playing.
One may choose to manipulate his tongue differently in order to change registers. However my described "brick wall" effect negates the possibility of air travelling "faster" through the embouchure as the result of the "tu-ee" or tongue arch etc. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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trumpetmandan Regular Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2018 Posts: 44
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Questions |
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fitzy64 wrote: | Anyway, I've noticed that when my normal playing reaches two criteria:
1. ability to chromatic down to pedal G and maintain the tone
2. ability to play C scale at pp and sustain high C at pp without tone going bad or falling off the note...
...I am able to hit notes in the areas of Double G and Double A fairly well.
I was wondering if this is just coincidence or if I'm onto something, something to do to make those criteria more consistent, and something to reduce the need for those criteria.
Fitz |
Definitely not a coincidence. Think of range as more of a technique than as a strength. When you are able to play with control down to pedal G and up to a soft high C, you are demonstrating good coordination and control of the relationship between your air and embouchure.
There are many potential reasons for why you cannot do these things every day. Fatigue is one likely possibility, inconsistent fundamental tone production is another.
It's tough to give specific recommendations online without having heard you play in-person. The only thing I can say with certainty is that the relationship between your two criteria and your range is not a coincidence. Zero in on what allows you to do these things when you are able, and what is inhibiting you when you are not. |
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deleted_user_48e5f31 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lexluther Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2015 Posts: 108 Location: Northwest, Indiana
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Quote: | When you play in the low and pedal registers at a reasonable dynamic with the low register beginning approx E sitting at the bottom of the staff, you are developing aperature control and strength. You have to blow a large amount of air volume to get the note to speak and a large and specific amount of lip tension to prevent the embouchure from blowing open. |
First; its air FLOW you are describing. Not air "volume". (The air "volume" is the flow x the duration. Flow is an instantaneous quantity and does not relate to note length.)
Also, pedals do require control of the lip aperture but they do not require much effort. Thus they really are not a strengthening exercise.
The pedals also can be played softly and in that case do not require a large flow of air. Just like any note, the flow varies depending on the loudness. But the flow resistance of pedals is less both at the aperture AND in the instrument. |
It always seems to me that the lower I go, the more air it takes. _________________ Bb - Schilke B6, SB4-MG Soloiste
Bb - Yamaha 8310Z II, 25th Anniversary Xeno
C - Yamaha Artist Chicago Xeno
Flugel - Getzen Custom Reserve 4895
Eb/D - Yamaha 6610
Cornet - Bach Strad 184ML |
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