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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:31 pm    Post subject: Practice tips Reply with quote

This isn’t a question about how to develop additional high range, but rather how to effectively practice the range I currently have. In about 3 months I’ve got a concert coming up that requires a lot of above the staff playing (at the top of my ability), and I’m trying to determine a good way to prepare for it. Specifically, I’m considering keeping my flugelhorn in its case for the next few months, and to practice solely on my lead mouthpiece. However, I’m not sure whether that would actually be helpful; or would it actually be more beneficial to practice my regular mouthpiece and flugelhorn as well? And in general: what would be an effective way to solidify the upper register to make it dependable enough for a concert (with all the nerves/adrenaline and such)?

If anyone has any advice to share, that’d be most appreciated.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Identify your 'limiting factors' -

If there is any pain, injury, even 'discomfort', involved then maybe some attention is needed with your technique.

For extending muscular endurance (strength and control), slow practice of what you will be performing - with adequate rest periods to avoid injury or need for any 'extended rest'.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much depends on whether you are playing solo or in a section. In the former the best thing you can do is alternate heavy and light days leading up and focusing on flexibility. I advise many short sessions with no over blowing.

If you are playing in a section you probably have more options unless you are playing lead. If you're one of the other horns look for things you can take down if necessary or even lay out if you get gassed.

If you're playing lead you can probably fudge some of that. Trade a part or two with another player. Take some high tutti stuff down.

With every kind of playing, breathing is key!
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Identify your 'limiting factors'

The main thing I’m concerned about is endurance. I can more or less play the parts individually, in the practice room, at low volumes, with rests at my own pace inbetween. However a whole concert at full volume is another matter. If I were to play the concert today, I’m pretty sure I’d burn through my chops quickly due to overblowing, so one my main goal is finding a way to avoid that. Intonation and secure attacks are on my to-work-on list as well.

jhatpro wrote:
Much depends on whether you’re playing solo or in a section.

I’m playing in a section. I’ve already passed along all solo’s to the 2nd trumpet (he has a nicer tone anyway), but besides that, it’s pretty much me. Trading parts isn’t an option, as none of the others are able to play them unfortunately. I’m certainly not above taking stuff an octave down if required, but I want to keep that as a fallback option. As I still have 3 months, and I really want to do my best to actually play all of it as written. I feel like this is great opportunity to really work on my upper register but I’m unsure how to practice it (until now, I’ve mostly focused on learning the proper technique but the challenge now is to turn it into actual playing).
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many root causes to your endurance problems. Trying to find the answer on your own or through this forum is obviously not working. Go find a qualified teacher for guidance.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Go find a qualified teacher for guidance.

Unfortunately that's not an option. As for the cause of the 'endurance problem': for the most part I can play the music back to back just fine. But I know myself: when the nerves/excitement kicks in, it's easy to slip back into old habits, as they die hard, and that's when problems arise.
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jscahoy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
The main thing I’m concerned about is endurance. I can more or less play the parts individually, in the practice room, at low volumes, with rests at my own pace inbetween. However a whole concert at full volume is another matter. If I were to play the concert today, I’m pretty sure I’d burn through my chops quickly due to overblowing, so one my main goal is finding a way to avoid that.

Sadly there are no quick fixes to endurance issues. I'd start by playing a "simulated concert". All pieces in order, at performance volume, with written rests and expected time between pieces. Better to know exactly where you are at, while you still have time to make adjustments (down octaves, etc.)
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Go find a qualified teacher for guidance.

Unfortunately that's not an option. As for the cause of the 'endurance problem': for the most part I can play the music back to back just fine. But I know myself: when the nerves/excitement kicks in, it's easy to slip back into old habits, as they die hard, and that's when problems arise.


Practicing on the lead mouthpiece or not seems to be your question??

My take on the subject:
The following works for me : been struggling to combine brass band front row with lead trumpet I´ve found that if I practiced on the lead mpc, Schilke 14B and then tried to use the Schilke 14 3D3 or the DW Ultra 1,5 I got burned quickly in the brassband; at times very quickly. And the endurance on the trumpet didn´t seem to improve as I was wishing for.
As the rims are the same then the depth (and bore) might be the villain(s)?
Anyway - I have begun practicing solely with the 14 D3D, only picking up the lead piece on rehearsals and concerts. The result is: problem solved! Great endurance in the brass band and in the big band. And no problems with the transition. After a few bars my lips seem to adapt quickly to the more shallow piece.

So for me playing on a bigger/deeper mouthpiece has provided me with a lot better endurance. But my results are based on using the same rim, same diameter. I was afraid that the transition to the more shallow (and different alpha angle) cup would mean problems but not so.

Also: I do practice the big band charts with the deeper mouthpiece; this forces me to become more observant of how I produce the sounds, too much pressure, lips blown apart etc etc.

Then the required range isn´t stratospherical; the ceiling hovers around Eb, E sometimes an F. I guess that charts that demand higher notes would require a more dedicated mouthpiece than the 14B (and probably someone else than me); which probably would make the transition more difficult.
And - performing in front of a live audience can do mysterious things to your embouchure - not wanting to miss a certain lick might make you press a trifle too much which in the long run(s) leads to a build up of lactid acid. ("I just can´t miss that high E so here I go, I´m gonna nail it so help me....").
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Seymor, that was exactly my question, and your response is very helpful indeed!
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find yourself a private teacher! I know someone else suggested and you dismissed it rather bluntly.. If you want your progress to be more efficient and truly suited to your needs, strengths and weaknesses, then the best approach, by far, is one-on-one study.
Self analysis is more often than not, inaccurate at best.

Endurance is like that proverbial onion, layer after layer.
My preference is to practice on the equipment you're going to be using. There are many variables introduced with changing: resistance, tuning, slotting, articulation, etc. Going from one to the other will have a negative impact upon your endurance.

Practice slowly! SERIOUSLY slow. First of all it will improve how well you play the music, and your approach to playing it (reinforcing good habits), which in itself will improve your endurance. The better you know the music the more confident you will be, the more relaxed you will stay, the longer you will last.
Practice like you will perform, don't allow yourself to get caught up in the moment and overplay-stay within yourself.

Then practice like an athlete. Not every day can be a max day! Build a routine that over a period of 3-5 days varies from a light day to a day that you max out your chops. Repeat, giving time for recovery and growth.

For the tour, develop your efficiency during the gigs-play what you have to with good form, be smart. Trade off parts, lay out when you can. Do you really have to play every note?
Have a practice routine!!! Keep fundamentals sharp (tone, fingers, flexibility, articulation...). I would often get 30-60 minutes of fundamentally sound playing in early in the day prior to "warming up" at the gigs that night.

+ Warming down was a huge key for me for such tours.. just a few minutes of quiet, controlled, fundamentally precise playing before I put the trumpet away afterwards made the next day/days much more consistent.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with Zaferis.
Am I having two opinions simultaneously
Nope. My answer was in relation to the immediate need. What Stuartissimo might do on the double.
The rest is a bit more complicated.....and you will never arrive at the far end.
Kaizen!
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So essentially I should just stick to a normal practice scheme and not focus overly on specific aspects? That seems sensible. Do I understand correctly that you’d recommend against including the flugel in my practice (I won’t be playing it for thd concert)? As for the offloading parts, insofar there are options to do so, I’ll definitely do that (as I stated earlier I already passed along the solos). But I also want to use this as an incentive to really focus on improving my overall playing, so I wanna prep as if I do need to play everything.

As for the teacher thing, I’d rather not derail the thread by going into details. Let’s just state that it’s not an option for me, and leave it at that, please.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately in this case Billy B and Zaferis belong to the select group of posters here who you can trust especially on a subject like this one.
And I surely don’t want to upset you but your story sounds not very good. You complain about range, endurance and tone. You invested in a good horn (Olds Recording), a valve job and expensive mouthpieces (AR) with obviously not too much result. So there is at least the suspicion of fundamental work to do.
That’s the way I read the comment of BB.
I don’t know you but there is really some reasonable doubt that you can fix this on your own.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
So essentially I should just stick to a normal practice scheme and not focus overly on specific aspects? That seems sensible. Do I understand correctly that you’d recommend against including the flugel in my practice (I won’t be playing it for thd concert)? As for the offloading parts, insofar there are options to do so, I’ll definitely do that (as I stated earlier I already passed along the solos). But I also want to use this as an incentive to really focus on improving my overall playing, so I wanna prep as if I do need to play everything.

As for the teacher thing, I’d rather not derail the thread by going into details. Let’s just state that it’s not an option for me, and leave it at that, please.


The other posters point out the possibility of a bigger problem; in particular Delano. I won´t argue with this ´cause I haven´t heard you play.
My take, practicing on a deeper mouthpiece works for me, that said it might not help you. And I put forward some specifics - roughly the same moutpiece but in different configurations..
I, personally, wouldn´t recommend practicing on a flugel mouthpiece. Too big differences, in the way of playing the horn, and in the very construction of the mouthpiece. So a normally deep mouthpiece for trumpet, or even a little bit deeper as in my case, and then a more shallow variant of the same for lead. Admittedly the 14B isn´t that shallow but it helps me playing higher up.

Also- I have gathered from the TH posting herd that the pros can play as high on a legit mpc but get less exhausted with a more shallow/lesser one. Personally I don´t seem to gain range - maybe one tone higher - by using the more shallow variant but I do not tire as quickly.

Concerning exercises: what helps me is quite specific, the BE method.
Generally speaking practicing attacks (keeping the aperture intact throughout the range, lip flexibilities (preferably progressive, beginning low), intervals, in short the ususal tricks of the trade.
I side with Zaferis in "practice like an athlete". Wise worlds. And warming down (as the athletes do).
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Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
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Trumpets:
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King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuartissimo, given your tight time frame here is what I would do:

1. Play your parts multiple times every day. Start with warm-ups that use slow phrases from some of the mid-range material. Get the tonalities and rhythm in your head.

2. Use a metronome so your time is rock-solid. Record yourself.

3. Spend more time on the most challenging passages but always include a daily run-through of the entire concert.

4. Play the high stuff down until you have the notes and rhythm nailed.

5. Listen to (and play along with) recordings of the tunes you'll be playing.

6. Ask a band mate to give you feedback on where you need to dig in.

Good luck!
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2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for your replies. The range and endurance are there, for the most part, but most of it is recently learned, versus 20+ years of poor habits I'm trying to un-learn. It's still too easy to lose focus in stressful situations and start overblowing. As such, I was mostly looking for some input as to make my practicing more focused and effective. Between the responses by zaferis, Seymor and jhatpro, I think I've got enough to work with. Thanks guys!
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trumpetfarts
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
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Last edited by trumpetfarts on Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this list and will add my own commentary to a few points



jhatpro wrote:
2. Use a metronome so your time is rock-solid. Record yourself.


And practice slow. Slow practice is about making sure you play the sound you want, with the ease you want, with the music you want to make.

Quote:
3. Spend more time on the most challenging passages but always include a daily run-through of the entire concert.


Ok maybe every other day, or every two days until you're feeling stronger.

Endurance is a strange beast Apart from the physical aspects of it, making sure you can sing all of your parts (exactly, not just mumbling) will do wonders. Don't wear your chops down and think you're getting stronger, keeping them fresh is WAAAAY more important than breaking them down. It's more like a runner than a weightlifter, you always want to feel like you can do that same run again when you're done.[/quote]
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