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Can Practicing on a Screamer Develop My Range?


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alanb_tpt
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:35 pm    Post subject: Can Practicing on a Screamer Develop My Range? Reply with quote

Hello trumpeters,

I'm currently a junior in high school, and was wondering if practicing on a screamer mouthpiece (e.g. Kelly Screamer Mouthpiece, I'm on a budget!) would help me develop my range above the staff. Right now, I play on a Bach 3C, but I can't play anything above a G above the staff reliably.

Range has never been my strong suit, and I've been stuck at this level since middle school. I have a friend who plays on a Schilke to practice range, and can now play above the staff reliably on many mouthpieces, including non-screamer ones. I was wondering if I could use a similar approach to reliably develop my range. I'd like to stick to my 3C, but use a screamer only to develop my range.

Thanks!
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fleming
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:46 pm    Post subject: Welcome! Reply with quote

Welcome! It’s always great to hear from younger players.

Suggested: Rather than a blog, your best bet (by far) is to connect with a qualified teacher. Face to face is best, but Zoom also works.

There is no substitute for good teacher.

Best Wishes as you move ahead!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NO - your range problem is that you haven't learned the 'skills' needed for playing higher. And my guess is that you are using a lot of rim pressure and 'stretched lips' to play above the staff.

If that is your situation, then it is not uncommon - many players have never received much guidance about their lips and embouchure.

Finding a 'good teacher' is always a good recommendation!

I've got a description about how various aspects of embouchure 'work', and while it isn't a guide about 'how to play', it gives you information about what 'needs to be happening'. So you can do a better job of understanding what you are actually doing, and why it might not be working. People have many different ways of explaining what they 'think' they are doing, and teachers have different ways of guiding students to 'do it right'.
But for just about everyone, there really are some basics about what needs to be happening physically.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my opinion based on 50+ years of experience:

A "screamer" mouthpiece isn't going to help you develop your high register any more than your current piece, which is a common all-around mouthpiece, albeit maybe a little large for some young players. If you haven't developed the fundamentals that will help you get out of the staff on your current setup, there is no magic bullet that will give you range. A smaller, shallower cup might add a couple of notes but it won't improve your technique and switching to one without the proper training will only compromise your sound and intonation.

Considering your age and stage of development, I will echo other experienced posters on this forum: GET A TEACHER--and not just any teacher, but one qualified to assess your needs and help you address them properly.

Best of luck in your quest and welcome to the forum.
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I say "get a teacher," do you get any instruction currently? Are you in the school band?

Our high school music instruction (way back) was two after-school rehearsals for the full band (the director was a woodwind guy so not much help with brass range), and one small instrument-specific group lesson. Our brass teacher was not very imaginative - he just gave us an Arban exercise every week and I topped out at A above the staff. If you have a teacher now, be proactive and ask him or her how they developed their range and what they suggest. Then really practice it. It does not come by magic, screamer mouthpieces included.

If you don't have a current teacher, either find one, or if you can't afford one, go back to basics - long tones in your comfortable range 15-20 minutes a day, lip slurs in the same range, and very gradually work to extend your range. Trying to hit new highs every day is counterproductive.

Play with good posture. Experiment with what leads to good tone at the top of your range with your current setup...for me, remembering to concentrate on my lower lip roll and angling the horn down very slightly helps at the top without resorting to brute strength and pressure. FWIW, my mouthpiece is a Curry 3M. Slightly shallower than a 3C but in the ballpark, and I have a comfortable E above high C most the time unless I am tired.

This all takes time and concentration. Good luck.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mouthpiece won’t give or help you develop better range all by itself no. However, I’ve found it useful as a practice tool to avoid putting my lips too deeply into the cup. That in turn helped me play more efficiently, and that eventually gave me better range.
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kgsmith1
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a teacher. (If you're comfortable sharing roughly what county you're in, you'll probably be able to get some recommendations on here, even for Skype lessons if no one is near.) Or if you feel brave post a video and ask for feedback, but it's on you to figure out whose advice is worth following.

Range is complex in the literal, boring sense that there are a variety of actions coordinated to change pitch. Browse some old threads and you can find debates on whether embouchure, tongue level, jaw position, breathing, etc can control pitch most effectively and in what combination. You probably need to work on coordinating one of the things I just listed but without a teacher you won't know which.

A "screamer" mouthpiece - I assume some combination of narrow diameter, shallow depth, and tighter backbore. Grabbing one out of the bargain bucket at a local music store, without knowing what you're trying to fix, will probably just confuse your face. Reacting to the unfamiliar equipment will probably cause your worst habits to kick in. Without functional trumpet fundamentals the mpc plays you, you don't play it.

I can take a decent guess at why the "screamer" helped your friend. Small pieces won't tolerate much "lip engagement". So if your friend had developed habits like pressing too hard, or using the mouthpiece to nudge or pin the lips into position, or otherwise let too much of their face into the mouthpiece, the small piece won't have room to tolerate these habits the way a big piece will. But you should really get a teacher to figure out what the real issue is. No way to say at this stage that lip engagement is anything you should work on. Consciously trying to manipulate the embouchure can worsen issues especially if there are other fundamental flaws.

[Edit, yeah I'm mostly just agreeing with Stuartissimo and took forever writing all this and didn't see their reply.]
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Pops
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in a usable way unless your normal mouthpiece is simply too big for you overall.
It is NOT the mouthpiece it is the player.

I have taught for 50 years, written over 25 books and helped thousands of players.
There are some key reasons why people get stuck with a poor range.

1. They have never really practiced range. If you play 1-5 Gs a day then A can never happen because you never really owned the G.
If you play fewer than 50 Fs a day then there is no real base to build the G on.
We need to play LOTS of notes 1-2 steps lower than our max note.

You have to play more high notes every day.

There now you know the secret.

To get there takes some common sense.
I have students that play 1200-1500 notes above High C every day PLUS band PLUS gigs.
They started with 10-20 extra high notes a day. It grows.

Your body has a fantastic ability to adapt to change and stress BUT it does it best when you increase the stress slowly and evenly. You HAVE to add a few more and NOT a lot more. Adding a lot more strains the lip muscles and you go backwards.

You need to work on the notes UNDER you highest note.
WE are trying to bench press 100 pounds a lot and NOT 400 pounds once.


2. There are more than likely physical aspects of playing that you also need to work on.

The 4 most important are Lip setpoint, Anchor Tonguing, Breath support (like we cough), and Lip Compression.

“Lip Setpoint” (TM)

Most players set for the 1st note of every phrase. So a player with a 3 octave range has 36 sets that they use. Nothing ever feels sure and 100% locked in.
They sound different based on the starting note of the phrase, their range is different. They often have to take a breath to reset to continue playing higher or lower. Pros don't do that.

Take line 1 of page 125 in the Arban. It is a C Major scale with every other note jumping down to low G.
If you start on the Low G the middle c is hard for some players. If you set (and play) a middle c first and then start, the high notes are easy.

I make my students do an extra octave of the exercise the to high C while keeping the Low G every other note.

They set the lip closeness (Setpoint) and withOUT resetting or taking a breath they start the exercise.
It is easy to compress the lips to play a half an octave higher than your set point. It is easy to learn to relax and (drop the jaw) to get to a full low g.

The Middle C, 4th space E or G on top of the Staff should ALWAYS be your starting Lip Setpoint (based on how easy the note plays for you). That way you have a base from which to judge where every note is in relation to your starting aperture/tension level.

After a month or so of always using 1 setpoint you start becoming more accurate even with sight reading; because you learn where every note is based on your setpoint.

Set is a very old idea. It is so old nobody living could claim it. It has book references over 150 years old. Even in more modern times E.S.Williams taught it and all of his students like Don Jacoby who did too.

Often they would say things like don’t play on multiple sets or don’t use several sets. Sometimes it would be “Play on one set.” The term “embouchure set” was even used back in the 50s. Play on one ’embouchure set”. Embouchure refers to LOTS of physical elements combined. Corners, facial tension, tongue arch, lip position…

“Lip Setpoint” (TM) is MY 35 year old phrase that describes MY variation of a 150 year old idea. I don’t include the use of firm corners, facial tension… I talk in terms of lip closeness/touching only. You can set the lips in the same closeness as you use to play a G on top of the staff withOUT setting any facial tension. This allows you to get the ONE set without always holding too much tension.

Anchor Tonguing.

Whistle the first exercise of an Irons flexibility study.  This is the same movement that your tongue should use as we play.

It is like using Taw for low notes Too in the mid range and Tee a little higher. Tiss for everything above G on top of the staff.

It is a forward tongue arch Not an upward arch.
The forward arch does 2 things the up arch does not do.

A forward arch moves the tongue a LOT and causes the jaw to move. The jaw movement makes changes to the amount of lip curl or pucker present and this alignment difference changes the pitch without using any lip strength or extra facial tension.

Also as we arch the front of the tongue toward the teeth a little this makes a more focused air-stream. The more focused the stream the less lip mass we excite and the higher we play.

The commonly done type of tongue arch (center up and tonguing with the tip) is very inefficient and was NEVER taught by any proponents of tongue arch.
Clarke, Gordon, Maggio… all taught anchor tonguing and NOT an upward arch.

It was always a forward arch against the teeth. Forward arch works 10Xs better that an upward arch.

Breath Support

It isn’t as much breath support as the CHANGE in breath support that helps us to play high notes.
Relax the stomach muscles. Tensing the stomach muscles does NOT create a smaller body cavity or pressurize the lungs to any great extent.

Cough.
Feel how the cough pulls the stomach in and expels the air.

Bringing the abs in toward the spine and contracting the muscles around the girdle does create a smaller body cavity. That moves your guts and since the pelvic bones won’t let them go down; they have to go up against the diaphragm. That makes the part of your chest cavity available for your lungs smaller. And that places the air in the lungs under pressure.

Pull the stomach in farther for each higher open note starting at the top of the staff. Pull it in fast and before the note starts. (The air has to start moving before you tongue.)

Jake (Don Jacoby) used to try to get people to use visualization to understand breath support. He used to tell use how far in feet we should send the note.
I’ll give you an example.

If you were to drop a ball onto the floor you would just let it roll off of your hand. Jake used to say to let the low notes roll out of the bell and land on the floor.(That is like a Low G. I sigh to relax my breath for these notes. Just the weight of the shoulders moving down during the sigh is all the support they get.)
If you were trying to throw a ball to someone 4 or 5 feet away then you would use a slight wrist action to gently toss the ball. (That is a low C. Gentle and no muscular support.)
If I threw to someone 15 feet away then I would use my whole arm but again gently. (That is like a middle C again not really pushing with support.)
If I throw a ball 40 Feet then I use my arm and get some hip into it. (That is like a High C. I have now engaged support muscles but not to their max. I use the muscles under my navel to pull everything in and up slightly. The motion has to be fast but it isn’t far. When I relax the muscles above my navel and pull in with the muscles below my navel, I become skinny. (Sort of) The motion moves my internal organs and they really only have one way to move. They push against the diaphragm and in turn it pushes against the lungs and the air is compressed. If you do it slowly then you get very little help. If you do it very fast then you forcefully push high notes through the horn. )
If I throw a ball 80 Feet I need to put my whole body into it. I wind up, I step, I engage the hip… (That is like a DHC. I am using lots of breath support. I use the muscles under my navel to pull everything in and up a lot. The motion has to be fast and far. At this point I need some support from my back and sides. Everything below the ribs is contracting in but the front does the most work and moves in twice as far as it did for High C. Somewhere above High C we start adding support from the back and sides too. Squeeze the air from the bottom up.)

Lip Compression:
Lip compression is the act of 1 lip pressing against the other. Like pinching the thumb and forefinger together. In order to do this with your hand the thumb must be touching the finger (there can be no air space between them), It works the same way with the lips.

The lips also need to be lined up so that when we push them together one doesn't go under the other lip.

I personally frown to push the center of the bottom lip up to the top lip.
(There are 5 fairly normal ways to make lip compression but the frown is the easiest to control.)

These are just some basic ideas to get you started.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Can Practicing on a Screamer Develop My Range? Reply with quote

alanb_tpt wrote:
I'd like to stick to my 3C, but use a screamer only to develop my range.


Yes. Learning to play a small mouthpiece can help your overall technique. It teaches you how to focus. Lynn Nicholson makes his X-Piece for students to this effect as did Jerome Callet with his SC1sb. I think Wynton Marsalis too has a version of this.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.
This young player has problems a "cheater" mouthpiece will not help at all.
In fact, he will probably jam that tiny mouthpiece against his chops and lose was little range he has.
Bear in mind not every one can play these kinds of mouthpieces anyway.
Cheater mouthpieces are designed for well trained players who can handle the very shallow cups.
Practice and hard work make improvements. I learned that when I was his age.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:39 am    Post subject: Hope the OP replies! Reply with quote

I hope the OP makes the effort to read & understand the ideas that have been given - and replies with more info and questions!

Getting 'instructions' from a forum has problems, but there are many good things discussed that are worth awareness.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes and no...a mouthpiece alone will not give you notes you don't already have.
However, if used properly and efficiently, it can enhance your endurance and
current abilities in the upper register.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote'

Quote:
I’ve found it useful as a practice tool to avoid putting my lips too deeply into the cup. That in turn helped me play more efficiently, and that eventually gave me better range.


This by stuartissimo is exactly correct. Also, practice low and soft tones while allowing a FULL tone (not forced or loud) to develop. Pay attention to developing crisp and fine attacks on soft low notes. You may not want to return to the 3C but something smaller than a 3C, yet it will feel plenteous for performance.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to find the technique for playing higher. If you can't play at least a solid high C on a big mouthpiece like a Bach 1C something about your technique needs to be adjusted.

Even then just going to a shallow, small mouthpiece might not help, might even hinder you - it might not be a fit for your specific chops. I've got one of those plastic Kelly mp's, I don't like it, some people love them.

I played a Jet-Tone T1A for a long time. While not the shallowest of mouthpieces, it's fairly shallow. Didn't give me any screaming range by itself - I mostly played it because it felt comfortable. It took me years to change my chops mechanics and get to where I could play F and G on it. I've also got a Jet-Tone Studio B which is theoretically supposed to be a high note mouthpiece, I can barely function on it, feels weird and uncomfortable. Tried a Maynard Ferguson Jet-Tone once, I could barely make a sound on it.

Then I stumbled across a Yamaha Bobby Shew Lead which is actually deeper than the T1A and the rim shape is very different - my range got stronger. It's now my main mouthpiece until such time as I find something that works better. Then again John Mohan who used to post frequently on here who's a really solid player with a pro resume says he gave the Shew Lead a tryout and hated it. To me it's the closest thing to a "magic mouthpiece" I've ever tried, he said he could barely function on it.

No, a peashooter "high note" mouthpiece in of itself isn't the magic answer.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:
Yes and no...a mouthpiece alone will not give you notes you don't already have.
However, if used properly and efficiently, it can enhance your endurance and
current abilities in the upper register.

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steve0930
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
I have been away from TH for a month or so and this was a good Thread to remind me of its value.

Pops wrote
Quote:
A forward arch moves the tongue a LOT and causes the jaw to move.

I like this point. Thanks Pops for taking all the time you did on your post.

Is there an abbreviation we should be using for GET A GOOD TEACHER GAGT because YES it's clearly pertinent advice for some and for many others the real value of TH is the teachers who are already here, so many qualified people sharing their insight - for free. Thank you and long may it continue.

cheers and stay safe Steve in Helsinki.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you practice?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practicing on a very shallow mouthpiece MIGHT be useful. You might find that practice on a very shallow mouthpiece helps you set up your embouchure in a position that is more conducive to playing in the upper register.

Also, you might find that practice with a very shallow mouthpiece helps you use less pressure. You may be more likely to bottom out on a shallow mouthpiece if you apply too much pressure.

All that said, your best course of action is to get a good teacher and follow his/her advice regarding what and how to practice. You'll almost certainly achieve better results that way. Good luck!
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krell1960
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Can Practicing on a Screamer Develop My Range? Reply with quote

alanb_tpt wrote:
Hello trumpeters,

I'm currently a junior in high school, and was wondering if practicing on a screamer mouthpiece (e.g. Kelly Screamer Mouthpiece, I'm on a budget!) would help me develop my range above the staff. Right now, I play on a Bach 3C, but I can't play anything above a G above the staff reliably.

Range has never been my strong suit, and I've been stuck at this level since middle school. I have a friend who plays on a Schilke to practice range, and can now play above the staff reliably on many mouthpieces, including non-screamer ones. I was wondering if I could use a similar approach to reliably develop my range. I'd like to stick to my 3C, but use a screamer only to develop my range.

Thanks!


The short answer is yes, but the long answer is only if everything else your doing is correct. Using so called screamer mouthpieces, personally there really aren't any actually, to build range is a falsehood. More important than how shallow a mouthpiece is, in my opinion is the Inner Diameter. The smaller the inner diameter that you can play the better. Playing small id's reduces the size of the vibrating area needed to get the lips to set into motion and also helps with lip intrusion inside the cup, there just isn't enough room for your lips to go into the cup and still make a good sound, so in turn your learn to vibrate on the rim, not in it. there is still slight intrusion though but it is much smaller than using large id cups. Learning to play on these small id's has a lot of benefits including range, but a good sound in all registers is equally possible and i find easier.
Learn to buzz the lead pipe correctly and your playing will change dramatically, try to make all notes feel like the buzzing leadpipe, go to the bill adam forum and learn to do it.
this simple exercise will change your ideas about how to create sound on a trumpet. Look at Matt Anklan's website, for sound files about what it sounds like. find "the Routine", charley davis put together a great book based on Mr adam's thoughts and ideas. All these things can be done on your own, but require thoughtful interpretation. High notes just don't show up the next day. But "ANYBODY" can play them. your 3c should not be stopping you from playing high, unless it's too wide for your lips and facial makeup.

experiment a little. there is no right way to play, results are all that matters,
good luck,
tom

ps - i couldn't play above high c in high school, but figured it out 30 years later by watching and listening to video's and people in this forum, mostly bill adam stuff, also reaching out to pro's who gave me thoughtful answers and inspiration. Keith Fiala told me years ago to go to a smaller id, it changed everything.
I studied with one of the greatest players and teachers from The Julliard School and he couldn't get me to play high. It's a knack to play high notes, the approach is different, LESS Air is needed up high but just enough to keep the lips moving and excited. When i do practice, which these days isn't often, i can still play from F# below the Staff to F# above high C without a problem. IT's just a learned feel, that once you get it, you'll have it. The daily practice that one does is for endurance and accuracy., Since i don't play for money much anymore i don't worry about those 2 things. i play for fun now.
PM me and i'll send you some of my recordings and examples of me playing small ID's in all registers with a good vibrant sound.

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TheGecko251
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Can Practicing on a Screamer Develop My Range? Reply with quote

alanb_tpt wrote:
Hello trumpeters,

I'm currently a junior in high school, and was wondering if practicing on a screamer mouthpiece (e.g. Kelly Screamer Mouthpiece, I'm on a budget!) would help me develop my range above the staff. Right now, I play on a Bach 3C, but I can't play anything above a G above the staff reliably.

Range has never been my strong suit, and I've been stuck at this level since middle school. I have a friend who plays on a Schilke to practice range, and can now play above the staff reliably on many mouthpieces, including non-screamer ones. I was wondering if I could use a similar approach to reliably develop my range. I'd like to stick to my 3C, but use a screamer only to develop my range.

Thanks!


All the stuff these other guys are saying is solid advice. I also mainly play on a 3c, and my range is consistently pretty great. In my opinion the benefit of a smaller mouthpiece is in endurance, with the mouthpiece doing some of the compression for you via a tinier rim/cup/backbore (I think, I'm not a physicist). If you want a more lead oriented mouthpiece check out the Marcinkiewicz e19-e7, the rim size is comparable to a Bach 3 but the cup is significantly shallower. The only difference in feel is the cup imo, it still blows pretty open.
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