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Mouth Piece & Air Leak



 
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50YrComeback
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Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 71
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Mouth Piece & Air Leak Reply with quote

I went south for a few weeks so am away from my teacher. So seeking a little advice.

I have both a 3C & 7C MPC - started with a 7C, then I tried the 3C during a session with my teacher that seemed to improve tone & range. I got home the same day, impressing myself with my 3C playing only to find out I mixed them up and was actually playing the 7C. Since then, have gone back/forth. Sometimes one feels better than the other. I am going to resist any more experiments until I improve my playing.

So, as I am re-learning and strengthening the chops, is it better to develop on the smaller 7C than the 3C, all other things being equal? Or is it just a feel thing. Today, I started with the 3C and was leaking air to the right side of the MPC and had fuzzy tone. Popped the 7C in, stopped leaking air and tone improved immediately. I should also say that both MPC appear to be identical from outside to outside, just wider rim on the 7C.
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GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"

50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 461
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Betty or Veronica - "better go home son, and make-up your mind"


Jay
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The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 7493
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing the minor problem of air leaking would resolve if you commit to a single piece and stay with it. You really need to be on any new piece consistently for at least a few weeks, sometimes more to truly appreciate how it will work for you.
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Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouth Piece & Air Leak Reply with quote

50YrComeback wrote:
................ is it better to develop on the smaller 7C than the 3C, all other things being equal? ............

Listen to Lynn Nicholson's comments about mouthpiece sizes, at video time point starting at 4:35.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLQMnNe4Tc4

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Harry
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50YrComeback
Regular Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 71
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Betty or Veronica - "better go home son, and make-up your mind"


Jay


Well, I wasn't an Archie fan but liked Gilligan's Island - I'm choosing 7C a/k/a Mary Ann over 3C a/k/a Ginger - I will be thinking about Mary Ann while I am playing and that has to sound good!!
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GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"

50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet
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50YrComeback
Regular Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 71
Location: St. Louis

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouth Piece & Air Leak Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
50YrComeback wrote:
................ is it better to develop on the smaller 7C than the 3C, all other things being equal? ............

Listen to Lynn Nicholson's comments about mouthpiece sizes, at video time point starting at 4:35.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLQMnNe4Tc4

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Harry



Harry, there should be a warning attached to this video to start with head phones in low volume - No more wax build-up in the ears!!!! I've seem some of his playing on video from way back with MF. He demonstrates really nice resonance in the lower register. Very interesting, particularly the reference to small MPC. I may give it a shot. All the high note guys keep coming back to the big muscles in the belly. I've got a big belly, just need to find and re-energize the muscle down there.

Thx
GaryF
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GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"

50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet
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Harry Hilgers
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouth Piece & Air Leak Reply with quote

50YrComeback wrote:
Very interesting, particularly the reference to small MPC. I may give it a shot. All the high note guys keep coming back to the big muscles in the belly. I've got a big belly, just need to find and re-energize the muscle down there.


1. Lynn's XPiece/Reversible rim have re-generated my college years relative high range and thus this hardware is accelerating my come-back.
2. Back in the day I was in the Schilke 14 range. Now I am at 11. I may in fact go down to 8.
3. With the belly muscles we can generate high air PRESSURE, resulting in an air cushion at the chops. So the mouthpiece pressure can be minimized to just enough to create an air seal.
4. I picked up weight training again when I started my comeback about four years ago. Especially for the mid-body. Best thing I did for myself.
5. Have fun and good luck with it.

Now I best go do my scales. I haven't done them in a few days

Cheers,
Harry
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mrhappy
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Joined: 03 Dec 2018
Posts: 327
Location: Port Jackson, NY

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouth Piece & Air Leak Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:

Listen to Lynn Nicholson's comments about mouthpiece sizes, at video time point starting at 4:35.


That's interesting... I'll have to take a closer look at those 'tools'!!
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems to be a good threat to drop the very educational comments by Allen Vizzutti. As a come-back player these comments have paid off for me in more ways than one.

They are somewhat hard to read on Allen’s link.
http://www.vizzutti.com/journal.html

So I copied them to post here.

Quote:
Allen Vizzutti:
The following are typical and common pitfalls that cause stiffness, poor response, and general inconsistency in trumpet playing:

Not warming up - 15-20 minutes - always. (Specific warm-up material is in the Allen Vizzutti Trumpet Method books).
Practicing too many lip slurs in the upper register top of staff and above.- not necessary
Too many long tones - not necessary. Stifness caused by static mouthpiece / lip contact.
Concentrating and working on embouchure and corner strength - not necessary.
The above 3 items make me very stiff so I don't practice them unless I need to brush up a technical move in which case minimal practice on lip slurs for instance does the trick.
Playing too loudly. Not practicing enough softly. Not taking frequent short rests / breaks PLAYING A MOUTHPIECE THAT IS TOO BIG and it's inevitable result: TOO MUCH LEFT HAND OR FINGER RING PRESSURE.
Over blowing. Leaving the mouthpiece on your chops too long without a lift-off or lightening of pressure. Playing super heavy weight mouthpieces or trumpets - not necessary – this equipment creates artificial resistance and dead sound.
Not having an open mind.
Not being willing to experiment.
Bad hand position. Not inhaling habitually in a relaxed and deep way.
Tongue placement too low in middle and upper range.
Not using common sense - if practicing XXX or YYY makes you feel like **** than don't do it.
Here's what you need to figure out:
The concept of efficient tone production, steady smooth airflow, relaxation and aperture control.
Practice shorter times but more than once a day. If you sound terrible and can take a day off - do it. Go do home work. Hang with some cool people. Pick your friend's brains about trumpet - with a grain of salt.
Fundamentals never change but the interpretation of the techniques with which to establish sound fundamentals, pun intended, vary. There is no path that is exactly the same for all players but great ideas and solid musical materials work well for most of us. Good Luck. AV My book "High Notes" in the merchandise section has text and practical studies and etudes about all of this for the classical or jazz trumpet player.


Hope this helps.

Cheers
Harry
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DaveH
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Joined: 20 Nov 2001
Posts: 3858

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouth Piece & Air Leak Reply with quote

50YrComeback wrote:
I went south for a few weeks so am away from my teacher. So seeking a little advice.

I have both a 3C & 7C MPC - started with a 7C, then I tried the 3C during a session with my teacher that seemed to improve tone & range. I got home the same day, impressing myself with my 3C playing only to find out I mixed them up and was actually playing the 7C. Since then, have gone back/forth. Sometimes one feels better than the other. I am going to resist any more experiments until I improve my playing.

So, as I am re-learning and strengthening the chops, is it better to develop on the smaller 7C than the 3C, all other things being equal? Or is it just a feel thing. Today, I started with the 3C and was leaking air to the right side of the MPC and had fuzzy tone. Popped the 7C in, stopped leaking air and tone improved immediately. I should also say that both MPC appear to be identical from outside to outside, just wider rim on the 7C.


This sounds very much like my experiences with the 3C and the 7C.

Speaking for myself, I think it is the very different rims, and maybe the cup itself, that affects my playing on these two mouthpieces.

The 3C rim has less "bite". I have to be more careful with precision of attack and focus or centering of the tone. But, the good part of the 3C is there is slightly more inherent volume of tone, flexibility is slightly better, range is a little easier to produce, and the tone is slightly brighter. I like all of that.

On the other hand, the 7C has a slightly deeper cup with a much sharper rim. This makes the precision of attack and articulation much better, and allows for a more focused and "centered" tone. A little less volume of tone, but maybe a slightly "cleaner", clearer sound. I feel a little more "secure" on the 7C. The rim design and cup design of the 7C provides a slightly cleaner sound, more reliable attacks, and a more "centered" tone.

Long ago, I played a 1 1/4C, and the 7C reminds me of that in some ways. However, over time, I found the 1 1/4C becoming simply too big.

Most of my recent playing has been on the 7C for the advantages it seems to provide. But at times, I get out my 3C and always appreciate it for its advantages as well.

I don't really have an answer - just a description of my experiences. These are two different mouthpieces. I can play them both, but there are definitely differences, and for me, I think it is mostly the different rim design, and to some extent, the cup design that makes the difference.
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