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Bach 37


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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
delano wrote:
Mr. Fudd, you are hopeless. Thanks for ruining my post, I will withdraw it.



Dear Delano! I didn´t mean to, I mean I´m not mean.
Next time it´s your turn!


Good response, but unless I missed something you have nothing to apologize for.

Brad
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,

What you've been describing in your last few replies leads me to think you might have too large a gap between the mouthpiece you're using and the lead pipe. When you use words like "stiff" and phrases like "not responsive," that's what comes to mind. A shorter gap might even liven up your tone. Have you ever pursued the gap issue?
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
I agree and it's a shame that all that advanced players, yes even professors, failed to develop their ear enough to find out themselves and that as a result now even high end symphonic orchestras are polluted with the dead sound of the Yamaha Artist series. And a Kanstul horn superior to another horn? Shofarguy won't stop to surprise me.


Nope, I won't! I once was handed a Yamaha (maybe a Chicago? I don't remember) for a very quick sampling. It was a good trumpet. It played well. It sounded good and it felt good in my hand. It was as good as my Benge 5X of old. Probably a little better. I'm sure if I had chosen it I would be satisfied with it.

The other Yamahas I've played were not as good, in my opinion (which is the only one I have) and didn't project. A Shew model is one of these and I both played it and heard (or rather couldn't hear) it played by its owner. The others were various vintages of student models, which were awful.

Just in case you didn't know, virtually every manufacturer in the US and Europe highly regarded Zig Kanstul and sought him out to help them with their brass instruments, because he knew more than anyone living about what makes a brass instrument resonate. So to me it's no wonder his instruments play well and sound good.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6018
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When these threads degenerate into “brand _____horns are just awful”, especially when the brands mentioned are generally well respected and used by respected players and organizations, is when I stop participating.

So, stopping.....here.😉

Brad
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll second Brad on disliking generalities. Yamaha, Bach, Kanstul and CarolBrass all manufacture diverse portfolios. As the tonal character, projection, slotting, feel, etc. varies widely between same maker pairings like a Bach 1B vs. 25, or a Kanstul X vs 1000, I think it far more beneficial to focus on individual models.

It is true that many Yamaha Xenos are built like tanks and take a lot of energy to cut through with, but not all - certainly the vintage 739T is a good example of the other end of the scale. Yes, I stopped using my 8335 when the Mt. Vernon 43 came along, but that doesn't mean its a "better" horn, it just responded with a tonal palette others approved of more while tiring me less. In someone elses hands, the heavier Yamaha might work out better. (plus now I play an Austin Winds that weighs a ton yet responds like a lightweight thanks to a mix of unique Texan innovation and Andy Taylor's fabrication skills - seems to project OK too, though behind the bell you don't realize it.)

Many Kanstul bells are easy to recognize and in a Kanstul horn, with the combined talents of Zig, Dale Olsen and Byron Autrey among other contributors (bringing a lot of Benge and Schilke research experience between the 3 of them), it is not a surprise at all. But that unique tonal quality is not the same as projection. For that, I would look more to mass placement, not the bell forming method. The Olds Superstar bell was formed by expanding in a mold after all, and that projects about as clear as any horn ever made.

In the end, it is a combination of player, horn and mouthpiece that determines the resultant characteristics of any set. Perhaps nothing in the current Yamaha portfolio fits Shofarguy - I used to think that about Getzen before getting a lot of positive feedback on a horn that I didn't like the sound of behind the bell, but out front, different story. The makers I mention above all make excellent instruments. Many will be wrong for individual players, and some will be right. You have to learn what works for you. Generalities just are not valid in the absence of the human part of the equation.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1986 Yamaha YEP-621 (first in US)
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in college, I played in multiple annual performances involving a full symphony orchestra and a 450 member choir. According to multiple people seating in various places (back of the fieldhouse, middle of the audience, at the podium, in the violin section) as well as the professional recording I was somehow able to project and be heard through everything despite playing a Yamaha 6335.

Yamahas don't play and sound exactly like a Bach. Since you can actually buy a Bach if you choose to, I appreciate having choices and differences.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
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Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
When these threads degenerate into “brand _____horns are just awful”, especially when the brands mentioned are generally well respected and used by respected players and organizations, is when I stop participating.

So, stopping.....here.😉

Brad


That was exactly my point and I got a little upset when one undermined this by weak cultural relativisme ("it's only me...")
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uberopa wrote:
Hi Lou,
If your Bach 37 trumpet was a Yamaha I would suspect the trigger. It is possible in my experience with the Yamahas to bind the valves with too tight a hand grip. The Bachs won't do that. As a last dich attempt for that first valve I would try the chem clean of 2/3 Dawn detergent with 1/3 white vinegar soak for twenty minutes. This worked well for my old Benge with very gummy vaves.Cheap and cheerful. Save the malt vinegar for the fish and chips.Best of British luck.


Hi Uberopa

Sorry, I think I previously missed your post. Thanks very much.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4306
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Lou,

What you've been describing in your last few replies leads me to think you might have too large a gap between the mouthpiece you're using and the lead pipe. When you use words like "stiff" and phrases like "not responsive," that's what comes to mind. A shorter gap might even liven up your tone. Have you ever pursued the gap issue?


Hi shofarguy

Thanks very much, but yes I have experimented with gap via Jim New's gap modulator and sleeves, and have already reduced the gap on my Xeno II via Jim New's 6.5 sleeve.

Thanks very much anyhow

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4306
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
delano wrote:
I agree and it's a shame that all that advanced players, yes even professors, failed to develop their ear enough to find out themselves and that as a result now even high end symphonic orchestras are polluted with the dead sound of the Yamaha Artist series. And a Kanstul horn superior to another horn? Shofarguy won't stop to surprise me.


Nope, I won't! I once was handed a Yamaha (maybe a Chicago? I don't remember) for a very quick sampling. It was a good trumpet. It played well. It sounded good and it felt good in my hand. It was as good as my Benge 5X of old. Probably a little better. I'm sure if I had chosen it I would be satisfied with it.

The other Yamahas I've played were not as good, in my opinion (which is the only one I have) and didn't project. A Shew model is one of these and I both played it and heard (or rather couldn't hear) it played by its owner. The others were various vintages of student models, which were awful.

Just in case you didn't know, virtually every manufacturer in the US and Europe highly regarded Zig Kanstul and sought him out to help them with their brass instruments, because he knew more than anyone living about what makes a brass instrument resonate. So to me it's no wonder his instruments play well and sound good.


Hi again shofarguy

Thanks very much.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4306
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
When these threads degenerate into “brand _____horns are just awful”, especially when the brands mentioned are generally well respected and used by respected players and organizations, is when I stop participating.

So, stopping.....here.😉

Brad


Hi Brad

I understand.

Thanks very much for your input up to this point, which is really appreciated.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4306
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I'll second Brad on disliking generalities. Yamaha, Bach, Kanstul and CarolBrass all manufacture diverse portfolios. As the tonal character, projection, slotting, feel, etc. varies widely between same maker pairings like a Bach 1B vs. 25, or a Kanstul X vs 1000, I think it far more beneficial to focus on individual models.

It is true that many Yamaha Xenos are built like tanks and take a lot of energy to cut through with, but not all - certainly the vintage 739T is a good example of the other end of the scale. Yes, I stopped using my 8335 when the Mt. Vernon 43 came along, but that doesn't mean its a "better" horn, it just responded with a tonal palette others approved of more while tiring me less. In someone elses hands, the heavier Yamaha might work out better. (plus now I play an Austin Winds that weighs a ton yet responds like a lightweight thanks to a mix of unique Texan innovation and Andy Taylor's fabrication skills - seems to project OK too, though behind the bell you don't realize it.)

Many Kanstul bells are easy to recognize and in a Kanstul horn, with the combined talents of Zig, Dale Olsen and Byron Autrey among other contributors (bringing a lot of Benge and Schilke research experience between the 3 of them), it is not a surprise at all. But that unique tonal quality is not the same as projection. For that, I would look more to mass placement, not the bell forming method. The Olds Superstar bell was formed by expanding in a mold after all, and that projects about as clear as any horn ever made.

In the end, it is a combination of player, horn and mouthpiece that determines the resultant characteristics of any set. Perhaps nothing in the current Yamaha portfolio fits Shofarguy - I used to think that about Getzen before getting a lot of positive feedback on a horn that I didn't like the sound of behind the bell, but out front, different story. The makers I mention above all make excellent instruments. Many will be wrong for individual players, and some will be right. You have to learn what works for you. Generalities just are not valid in the absence of the human part of the equation.


Hi OldSchoolEuph

Thanks very much for all of the above, which is really appreciated.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4306
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Back in college, I played in multiple annual performances involving a full symphony orchestra and a 450 member choir. According to multiple people seating in various places (back of the fieldhouse, middle of the audience, at the podium, in the violin section) as well as the professional recording I was somehow able to project and be heard through everything despite playing a Yamaha 6335.

Yamahas don't play and sound exactly like a Bach. Since you can actually buy a Bach if you choose to, I appreciate having choices and differences.


Hi Crazy Finn

Thanks very much.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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GordonH
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Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2714
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a 37 recently and added a Wick tone collar (designed by Will Spencer). I also swapped the valve guides for brass ones, which I had in my spares box. Both made incremental improvements to the evenness of response of the instrument. It is working better than any 37 I have ever played. Just put it in to have a couple of small dents removed.
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Besson Prestige
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and Horntrader 3 rims

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4306
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi GordonH

Thanks very much. I'm very pleased to hear that you like your Bach 37. Mine already has metal valve guides, as I believe that they were fitted as standard when my trumpet was made in 1979. I've tried a Denis Wick tone collar on cornets. If I remember rightly, I like fit on my Bach 184ML but not my Xeno. I never tried it on my trumpets. I'm however not look into change how my Bach 37 plays.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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