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Bach 37


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Louise Finch
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Does the trigger mechanism actually 'clamp onto' the valve casing by being squeezed?

Jay


Hi Jay

No, the trigger mechanism is soldered on to the side of the valve casing.

Obviously not my trumpet, but it is mounted like this one:

link

The parts are shown here.

https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=23816

As I said, probably a long shot, but I'm wondering whether over-tightening the screw could create tension in the valve casing.

Thanks very much.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over tightening the trigger 'pivot pin' might be a problem. Another possible concern is that the valve slide should move quite easily, so there isn't much force applied against the valve casing.

I think the pivot pin only needs to be 'finger tight' (similar to valve caps) - just enough so it doesn't loosen the back out.

Jay
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King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the stock trigger on two strads. I doubt that you could tighten it enough to warp the casing. Unless you use a wrench and even then the bracket is pretty chunky.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Over tightening the trigger 'pivot pin' might be a problem. Another possible concern is that the valve slide should move quite easily, so there isn't much force applied against the valve casing.

I think the pivot pin only needs to be 'finger tight' (similar to valve caps) - just enough so it doesn't loosen the back out.

Jay


Hi Jay

Thanks very much. The slide moves normally, and I've loosened the pivot pin to the point that it is sticking out a bit. I haven't any suitable tools only my fingers, but the opposite end of the pin to the nut end, seems to move further or closer to the valve block when turning the nut, rather than feeling tighter or looser. I've twisted it so that the end of the pin is further from the 1st valve casing. I haven't played my trumpet since, but will ge amazed if it has made any difference. Like I said, I'm clutching at straws.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I have the stock trigger on two strads. I doubt that you could tighten it enough to warp the casing. Unless you use a wrench and even then the bracket is pretty chunky.


Hi LittleRusty

Thanks very much. I'm not sure whether the pin really tightens anyhow, as it just seems to move further or closer to the valve block (the end of the pin moves closer to or further away from the end of its housing), rather than feeling tighter or looser, and it was definitely not wrench tight, as although difficult to turn, it eventually did turn with my fingers without feeling any looser as I moved the nut end of the pin outwards.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Louise, at the time when I bought my Bach 43 new, there really was not much choice in my neck of the woods. .......


I get that, but I don’t think that’s a reason to buy any particular horn. I live in a major city that also has a fine symphony (Houston, TX), and local horn choices here are pretty much Bach and Yamaha.....neither of which I currently play. You just need to find a dealer somewhere (not necessarily local) with a reasonable return policy, which is not especially convenient, but many of us across the country are in the same situation. So you either settle for what you find locally, or you don’t.

Brad
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:

... The slide moves normally, and I've loosened the pivot pin to the point that it is sticking out a bit. ...

-------------------------------
Then the pivot pin shouldn't now placing any strain on the valve case.
Try playing for a while, and be careful how much 'resting' thumb pressure you have against the trigger. And don't have any sideways (L/R) pressure. If possible, try playing without touching the trigger.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="JayKosta"]
Louise Finch wrote:


Then the pivot pin shouldn't now placing any strain on the valve case.
Try playing for a while, and be careful how much 'resting' thumb pressure you have against the trigger. And don't have any sideways (L/R) pressure. If possible, try playing without touching the trigger.

Jay


Hi Jay

Thanks very much. I don't do anything other than rest my thumb very lightly against the trigger, as unlike my Bach 184ML cornet, which has a very stiff trigger, the spring of my Bach 37 trigger is pretty loose, and the slide would extend if I used the trigger as a thumb rest. I'm therefore sure that I don't put any pressure on the trigger, including sideways (L/R) pressure. Thanks very much anyhow. I'll let you know what if any difference, loosening the pivot pin makes.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

A quick update (edit, this has turned out to be a long update lol). I've loosened the 1st trigger pivot pin to the extent that it probably extends too far. I'm not worried about the trigger as I never use it anyhow. Whether or not it is ideal technique, and after 24 years of playing, I don't really care, but I very loosely rest my right thumb under the leadpipe and against the 1st valve casing, pushing my right thumb up under the leadpipe when I want to play one handed when using mutes.

This factory fitted trigger is in the worst possible place in my opinion. I have tiny hands equivalent to that of a ten year old child, and I've had to have someone make me a longer trigger rod, as the original rod resulted in the trigger being too vertical and I couldn't get my tiny thumb behind it to put my thumb under the leadpipe when playing one handed. With the longer trigger rod, the trigger is tilted more forward, allowing my right thumb to go behind it.

Most probably this trigger is designed to be used with the right thumb since it is mounted completely on the right side, but I like to use triggers with my left thumb, and would nip my right thumb with the trigger if I ever used this trigger.

Rant over, why it was relevant I don't know lol, but what I am basically saying is that this trigger is useless anyhow, which is a shame, as I like to use the 1st slide triggers on my cornets, and 1st slide saddle on my Xeno II trumpet.

Anyway to get to my point, yes, the 1st valve was better, but still not quite right, but knowing this trumpet, it probably wasn't anything to do with the pivot pin on the trigger, as it is better some days than others anyhow.

The 1st piston seems to catch in the 1st valve casing, and the thickness and amount of oil seems critical. I use Yamaha synthetic light on all my other horns, and liberally coat the whole piston with it out of the casing. Admittedly this wastes rather a lot of valve oil this way, but compared to the cost not to say the extreme hassle in the UK of a valve job, I'm not bothered.

I'm however using Holton on this trumpet, as I've found this to be least problematic on Bach valves. I find Holton to be thicker and I tend to use less of it. If I use too much, this valve sticks even more, but everyday when I first pick up my trumpet the valves feel like they have been oiled in custard or something, as they are slow and heavy, until I re-oil again. With Yamaha light on my regular horns, I oil daily without usually wiping down first, and the valves always feel the same. I'm telling all this in case somebody says why didn't you say before, this points to so and so etc.

Anyway, re-oiling with Holton before each playing, this trumpet was getting very smelly and the bottom valve caps were getting full of oil. The time I played my Bach before adjusting the 1st trigger pivot pin, the 1st valve was the worst it has ever been and for some reason, the trumpet was absolutely filling with water, gurgling away and I was letting loads out of the main tuning slide water key. The more water I let out, the more the 1st valve improved, so before the next playing, this time after adjusting the 1st trigger pivot pin, I thoroughly wiped down the valves and valve casings, this time using less oil. The 1st valve did still hang a little on the upstroke but not enough to effect me too greatly, and I still managed to play air and variations on this trumpet without being hindered too much by the hanging valve. It didn't seem to fill with so much water either. I therefore imagine that too much oil was not helping, and that since the hanging 1st valve is worse with thicker oil, that this does not obviously point to worn valves.

I don't have any trouble with any of the valves on my other instruments, or issues with excessive gurgling or water. Does this make any sense to anyone? Is it just a symptom of too much oil?

Anyway, my plan is to keep playing my Bach at home, wiping down and re-oiling with Holton daily, until I am able to take it to Leigh at Eclipse for evaluation.

Any ideas anyone of anything else to try in the meantime. I've tried new springs, replacement metal valve guides from the right era Bach, all felts are new (Will Spencer did a valve alignment), various amounts of various thicknesses of oil, loosening the 1st trigger pivot pin, swapping over the finger buttons, top and bottom valve caps, ensuring that nothing is overly tight etc.

Yes, I know that it is to the tech to the tech, but I can't get down to Leigh at the moment, don't really want to pay courier charges when my husband is a taxi driver and goes to Luton Airport fairly regularly, and it is just a case of waiting, and to be perfectly honest, I don't really want to find out that the valves will require re-building, for reasons which I don't want to talk about, so am clutching at straws hoping to find something I can fix myself.

Part of me wants to start over again with a new Bach, but I'd ideally like the sale/trade in value of this one, which means getting it fixed.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Does the trigger mechanism actually 'clamp onto' the valve casing by being squeezed?

Jay


Hi Jay

No, the trigger mechanism is soldered on to the side of the valve casing.

Obviously not my trumpet, but it is mounted like this one:

link

The parts are shown here.

https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=23816

As I said, probably a long shot, but I'm wondering whether over-tightening the screw could create tension in the valve casing.

Thanks very much.

All the best

Lou


The screw is made of brass, a very soft metal. If you over tighten it with a wrench the stress will break the screw. Overtightening anything with threads can dampen vibrations and affect the sound if you are very sensitive. This repairman recommends a drop of Loctite on the screw threads and hand tightening only. The screw will stay put and won't vibrate loose without overtightening.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:

The screw is made of brass, a very soft metal. If you over tighten it with a wrench the stress will break the screw. Overtightening anything with threads can dampen vibrations and affect the sound if you are very sensitive. This repairman recommends a drop of Loctite on the screw threads and hand tightening only. The screw will stay put and won't vibrate loose without overtightening.


Hi Ed

Thanks very much, this is really appreciated. Have you any ideas what is going on with my trumpet, admittedly only from my descriptions over the internet?

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Speed
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few years ago, I bought an early 70s Getzen Severinsen. When it was cold, the valves were fine. After it warmed up, the first valve would start sticking. I gather that is the same issue you are having.

I did lots of cleaning, but I was finally advised to focus on the tubes between the valves. I bought the HW Brass Saver cleaning kit (available on Amazon), which includes a "swab" and a plastic cleaning rod with different diameters of synthetic material on each end. One end of cleaning rod works great on the tubing, and the other is for cleaning the valve casings.

I accessed the tube between the second and third valves with the cleaning rod by going through the third valve tube, after removing the third valve slide. I soaked the end of the cleaning rod in warm water and Dawn dishwashing liquid - and later in vinegar - and inserted it through the third valve tube all the way through until I could twist it round and round in the tube between the second and third valve.

To access the tube between the first and second valves, I removed the first valve slide and inserted the flexible "swab" through the first valve tubing and ran it completely through the valve casing, exiting through the third valve tubing. I did not pull it all the way through; rather, I pulled it through until the swabbing material was in the tube between the first and second valves. That left a part of the swab outside the first valve tubing, and the other end sticking out the third valve tubing. That allowed me to pull each end of the swab back and forth, thereby scrubbing the interior of the tube between the first and second valve, as well as the tube between the second and third valves (although I believe the cleaning rod was more effective on the latter tube). I soaked the synthetic material part of the swab, first with warm water/Dawn dishwashing liquid, and later with vinegar.

I'm not sure if it was the combination of the warm water/Dawn followed by the vinegar, or if the vinegar was the key, but after doing all that, and rinsing the entire instrument out with warm water, the problem was solved.

Admittedly, I followed the same procedure with a later trumpet I bought, but ended up having to do a complete valve job.

If you have not attempted a thorough cleaning and scrubbing of the tubes between the valves, you may want to try that. Those tubes are not easy to get at, but at least with my Getzen, it saved me the cost of a valve job.

Good luck!

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Marc

Thanks very much. Your detailed post is really appreciated.

However, I've cleaned the tubes between the valves multiple times + every bit of tubing imaginable, with my H W Brass Saver, and I am certain that this is not a dirt issue at all.

Thanks very much again.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim


Last edited by Louise Finch on Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi Marc

Thanks very much. I'll reply properly later, but just wanted to clarify that I've have cleaned the tubes between the valves multiple times + every bit of tubing imaginable, v with my H W Brass Saver.

All the best

Lou


I have no way of knowing, but it sounds to me that based on Lou’s discussions about her Bach, this particular problem is not likely to be corrected by cleaning.

Brad
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise, perhaps you could get better online help if you examined the physical appearance of the valve piston and the interior of the valve case.

Can you see or feel any vertical 'rub marks' on the piston, or the casing?

Try reflecting a light off the surface of the piston and casing - are there any waves, or jumps, or other distortions as the reflection moves along the length of the area?

Another test is to place the piston on a very flat surface - e.g. a piece of glass or polished marble - and to look carefully to verify that the valve FULLY contacts the flat surface along its entire length - and in all rotational positions.

Also, do you ever use the side of the trigger bracket as a 'rest' for your thumb? And was the valve always troublesome, or did it work fine for a while?

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Louise, perhaps you could get better online help if you examined the physical appearance of the valve piston and the interior of the valve case.

Can you see or feel any vertical 'rub marks' on the piston, or the casing?

Try reflecting a light off the surface of the piston and casing - are there any waves, or jumps, or other distortions as the reflection moves along the length of the area?

Another test is to place the piston on a very flat surface - e.g. a piece of glass or polished marble - and to look carefully to verify that the valve FULLY contacts the flat surface along its entire length - and in all rotational positions.

Hi Jay

Thanks very much. I'll do this, and report back.


Also, do you ever use the side of the trigger bracket as a 'rest' for your thumb?

No.

And was the valve always troublesome, or did it work fine for a while?

I've had my 1979 trumpet around 10 years. The 1st valve has always been a little temperamental, but I can't really remember when this issue really started. I believe it was in around 2011, that it started to annoy me, but there were a lot of other things going on in my life in that time, resulting in me relocating and primarily playing cornet for a couple of years. When I started doing more trumpet playing again, it drove me mad to the point that I quickly traded in a spare cornet and got an ex-demo Yamaha Xeno II. I've intermittently tried to get my Bach working again in between, with limited success.

Jay

All the best

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If memory serves, there is a long thread from a few years ago discussing Lou’s odyssey attempting to resolve this issue. I seem to remember this included a trip to at least one tech.
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Louise Finch
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi LittleRusty

Yes, you are right, but please do not provide a link to the previous thread. I'm starting again with my quest to solve this issue.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I've just spent an hour playing my Bach at home. I've been playing reasonably technical classical repertoire, semi-quaver runs etc. and the 1st valve didn't stick at all. Admittedly I was alternating with cornet, as I have rehearsals on both coming up in the next few days, but I played whole pieces on each.

I'll have to do the same tomorrow, but only playing this trumpet, to see if alternating with cornet was the reason that the sticking didn't start.

Surely it isn't a case of this trumpet only being good for a concert lol, providing the MD decides to talk for ages between each number

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
If memory serves, there is a long thread from a few years ago discussing Lou’s odyssey attempting to resolve this issue. I seem to remember this included a trip to at least one tech.

----------------------------------
I hope the tech carefully -
1) measured and examined the piston for straightness and roundness - and corrected if necessary.
2) used the proper sized case mandrel to detect & correct any case problem.

I do hobbyist metal work (small home metal lathe), so I have some experience with precision sizing - and how small outside forces can affect things.
With the close fit tolerance between the valve case and the piston, small pressure on the valve case could easily distort the case enough to cause sticking. e.g. pressure on the valve slide (in any direction) could be enough, because the length of the slide would act as a lever.

For example - before resuming trumpet, I played French horn for many years. One of the valve key lever-arms (the thumb valve on a double horn) became slightly bent. I believe this was due to some slight pressure on the lever from the padding in the case.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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