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iiipopes
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 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| nieuwguyski wrote: | For less money than having slides custom-fabricated you could buy a used marching french horn in F.
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Even if it is a Frumpet, it will almost certainly be no more awful than a Bb flugelhorn with expensive custom-built F slides. |
Indeed! A couple of years ago, I was playing baritone in community band and a particular selection had a solo that was, well, just too high in tessitura for anything but a music major/professional euph player, but too low for a standard flugel. I did end up playing the solo on my flugel, because I could not find in time a marching French horn or other comparable Eb or F instrument that would have done the job better.
Now, I am not necessarily recommending a mellophone section like Kenton experimented with, but a good Eb or F instrument is a better alternative to a 4-valve flugel for low range. Remember, the original purpose of a 4th valve was not low range extension, but to get problem notes, like bottom of the treble staff D and low G in tune.
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DJtpt31
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| Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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The frumpet looks like an interesting option. I had no clue there was such a thing. They seem to be relatively inexpensive on eBay. Maybe that might be something I look into and get it worked on to be better in tune.
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iiipopes
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| DJtpt31 wrote: | | The frumpet looks like an interesting option. I had no clue there was such a thing. They seem to be relatively inexpensive on eBay. Maybe that might be something I look into and get it worked on to be better in tune. |
Uh, well, unless it is a simple basic intonation issue that can be solved by trimming or adjusting individual valve slides (for example, all notes played 1st valve alone are flat compared to the open notes), the basic intonation characteristics of any horn are determined by the relative taper of the "bugle" part of the horn and the expansion through the other parts of the horn, for example the main tuning slide, as Schilke researched. Either the horn plays relatively in tune with itself with (in reality) a couple or few of notes with issues, or it doesn't. If the horn does not generally play in tune with itself octave to octave, no amount of tinkering will fix it.
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Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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DJtpt31
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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iiipopes,
Is it possible to adjust the bell/swap the bell or treat the horn to relieve tension/stress that would cause intonation issues along with trimming slides and adjusting valves?
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Brassnose
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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To come back to one of the very original questions - does the fourth valve enable you to play in F - Christoph Endres, one of Germany's top instrument makers claims exactly that. In fact he notes that on his flugel, it is possible to fix the position of the fourth valve to play in F BUT he offers additional slides that go with this operation to ensure intonation is good.
http://www.blechin.de/blechin/?load=link2_3_3
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kรผhnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C ๐
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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nieuwguyski
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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And to be fair, Sergei Nakariokov uses the fourth valve on his Coutois flugelhorn to extend the lower range and you can't argue with the results. But I'm not sure he's human.
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:10 am Post subject: |
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I have an F alto flugelhorn that is made by Willson. It was imported to the US by DEG. Plays very well in F. The perfect horn for the described issues.
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iiipopes
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| DJtpt31 wrote: | iiipopes,
Is it possible to adjust the bell/swap the bell or treat the horn to relieve tension/stress that would cause intonation issues along with trimming slides and adjusting valves? |
All horns benefit from being de-stressed. The problem is in the horn itself. Sometimes, this relieves a node or anti-node to help the horn resonate properly and come to pitch on a certain note. But if the horn has an inherent deficiency that it won't resonate any particular pitch in tune, then no amount of "de-stressing" will help. It depends on the horn. You pay your money and take your chances.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thoughts suspended temporarily.
Last edited by dstpt on Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Thoughts suspended temporarily.
Last edited by dstpt on Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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trumpetDS
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| The fourth valve on a flugal works the same way as a pic 4th valve. On a double horn, the thumb rotor changes the path of the air to access 3 additional slides in another key (Bb). A double horn has 6 slides plus a thumb rotor where a 4 valve flugal has 4 valves/4 slides, one slide for each valve. |
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Denny Schreffler
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:00 am Post subject: Re: 4 valve flugelhorn ๐ถ๐บ |
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| DJtpt31 wrote: | | Does anyone know anything about 4 valve flugelhorns? Does the fourth valve enable you to play in F? or does it work more like the fourth valve of a piccolo trumpet? |
Good discussion about the usual configuration.
Stomvi does it differently. I heard Pacho Flores play his a couple of times and discuss it, along with K.O., in a master class last month.
https://stomvi.com/en/products/instruments/flugelhorn/bb/1127-tit%C3%A1n-bb-4-valve-flugelhorn
There is a "chart" for the two different 4th-valve slides near the bottom of the linked page
-Denny |
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nieuwguyski
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| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: 4 valve flugelhorn ๐ถ๐บ |
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| Denny Schreffler wrote: | | DJtpt31 wrote: | | Does anyone know anything about 4 valve flugelhorns? Does the fourth valve enable you to play in F? or does it work more like the fourth valve of a piccolo trumpet? |
Good discussion about the usual configuration.
Stomvi does it differently. I heard Pacho Flores play his a couple of times and discuss it, along with K.O., in a master class last month.
https://stomvi.com/en/products/instruments/flugelhorn/bb/1127-tit%C3%A1n-bb-4-valve-flugelhorn
There is a "chart" for the two different 4th-valve slides near the bottom of the linked page
-Denny |
Well, to address this directly to the original question, the long fourth-valve slide on the Stomvi Titรกn flugelhorn allows for a theoretically in-tune chromatic range down to double-pedal C#, but it will not enable you to play in concert F, since the long slide lowers the horn to concert E.
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TrumpetMD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:14 am Post subject: Re: 4 valve flugelhorn ๐ถ๐บ |
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Interesting approach, with two different 4th valve slides, and with the lower (E slide) giving you an extra half step. I use a similar fingering with my Getzen Eterna. in a similar way, the Getzen Eterna's 4th valve slide has an adjustable dump slide. When I'm playing primarily in the pedal range, I pull it out to lower the 4th valve by an additional half step.
Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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