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Resistance


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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

...
As for the tongue arch, it is yet another resistance, especially if it is VERY pronounced. (As in almost "hissing") It then will reduce the air pressure available to the aperture. It will increase the total resistance of the playing system, and it will therefore reduce the flow. It usually is not a problem but to claim that the tongue arch increases air pressure is false.

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Do you think that in typical (even in the very high pitch range) that tongue arch can be so extreme that it constricts the air passage opening to be smaller than the lip aperture? Otherwise, I don't see how tongue arch could reduce the flow. I certainly agree that tongue arch (and how it affects the volume of the oral cavity) plays an important part of how the air behaves in the oral cavity, but I'm not convinced about it directly affecting pressure or flow rate.

Jay
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must consider the length of a restricted path, not just the cross-section, in regard to the resistance it adds. The aperture is small but also very short in flow length.

Even so, a very pronounced arch could reduce the pressure after it. But not by an amount that cannot be overcome by just blowing a bit harder.

I certainly don't think that even a pronounced arch is as small in cross-section as the lip aperture. if so it would be a real problem.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by Pete on Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Tone it down guys. You can argue the content without attacking the poster.

Really, Don? He started a whole new thread just to tell me I am wrong. And i haven’t even argued with him.

Pete


Yes, for what's its worth; I don't understand the moderating on this site at all. Thoroughly inconsistent and unnecessarily involved.

The number of threads on this site that descend into heated arguments, with no sign of the moderators, and then occasionally they choose to drop in and delete perfectly legitimate and rational postings with little to no justification at all.

I love the trumpet, and discussing the trumpet with other like-minded people, as well as (hopefully) giving a few people some useful advice from the lessons I have learnt on my journey into life as a professional player, but there are a couple of things about this site that wholly distill my interest, and the moderators are a major one.

Best
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever "tongue arch" is uttered, I imagine the sound of wooden chairs dragging along the floor, as the rest of the patrons in the bar create a wide berth for the two cowboys to settle the score.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl started a new thread to discuss the subject rather than disrupting the original thread. He has done this many, many times in the past and you should not take it personally. I do not believe he meant it as a personal attack and the tone of his post was not as such. Unlike the rather condescending posts made later that were clearly personal attacks.

If you have a problem with a post, PM the moderators. What some perceive as simple debate is perceived by others as heated attacks. The worst thing to do is to continue a public ruckus to be cleaned up later.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
Quote:
You can even try this down the trumpet (point 1) and you'll see that the apparent 'resistance' of the trumpet will do little to help you again.


This was a comment in regard to the resistance we experience when blowing steady air (no aperture) into the instrument.

In this case the mouthpiece throat is the dominant resistance. The horn itself (beyond the mouthpiece) indeed does not offer much resistance to the air as it flows.

This is yet a common misunderstanding among players. That this is THE resistance at all times.

It isn't.

In this case, the fundamental frequency could be considered as essentially zero.

The resistance of the instrument is highest at the resonance frequencies. (This is also necessary to be able to apply power to the sound).

While the aperture is necessary to facilitate the tone into the instrument. It DOES have inherent resistance as well. But at the resonance frequencies the aperture resistance becomes a less significant contributor to the total resistance.

Unfortunately, the higher the pitch, the smaller the average opening of the aperture. This means the aperture contributes more resistance on ascending pitches.

Similarly, a loudspeaker has a very small resistance at zero Hz. If I connect a DC ohmmeter (resistance meter) to the speaker I would measure a very low resistance. But in the presence of a powered signal with frequency, the speaker exhibits MUCH more significant resistance. Even an 8-ohm rated speaker could have resonance peaks at 30 ohms.

Likewise, a trumpet has very significant resistance at the resonance frequencies. Easily enough such that the lung pressure would exist in the oral space.

Even the aperture resistance would not be required. If we could eliminate the aperture resistance you would be astonished at how much easier playing would be. Especially for high notes.

That is why there is a distinct advantage to have rim-to-rim pulsation at the aperture for very high pitches. This makes the average cross-sectional area grater, creates less resistance, and more air power can be applied to the sound. Not lost thru the aperture resistance.

In ANY tone-playing case, the only way to increase the air pressure is by blowing with more effort.
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