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have the C



 
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:25 pm    Post subject: have the C Reply with quote

i have been trying to play to high C for quite a stretch and have finally cleaned up the note and everything under it. hallelujah.
it is the regular soap opera of trumpet practice, it's hard to have good practice, it's hard to increase range, and then you get a little range and everything that took muscular effort whistles out easily. some sort of yin/yang deal no doubt. then once you get your highest note the next half step is right there needing only moderate effort to grab. earl irons isn't kidding about the muscular embouchure. it comes in handy.
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to go Chuck! Your new favorite song... 'I Can "C" For Miles and Miles'!!
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyond the 'C.

If You could 'C' me Now.

Between the Devil and the Deep Blue 'C.'

C C Rider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu7vySQbgXI
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I really want to keep this going but Chuck DID answer the age old question posed by Marshall Tucker... "Can't You 'C'"?
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject: Re: have the C Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
i have been trying to play to high C for quite a stretch and have finally cleaned up the note and everything under it. hallelujah.
it is the regular soap opera of trumpet practice, it's hard to have good practice, it's hard to increase range, and then you get a little range and everything that took muscular effort whistles out easily. some sort of yin/yang deal no doubt. then once you get your highest note the next half step is right there needing only moderate effort to grab. earl irons isn't kidding about the muscular embouchure. it comes in handy.


Hi,

Without wanting to cause any offence, I can't help but feel every piece of terminology and concept in this post offers the explanation for why you have struggled up to this (again, not wanting to cause offence) very accessible note in the trumpet's range.

You describe everything as taking colossal effort; 'trying to play...' 'hard to... practice' 'hard to increase range' 'to grab' etc. Remember that the reality is that a high C is a note that must really fall in any serious player's usable range. Any big band player should have a very solid high C, as should either a first or second player in a Symphony Orchestra (a case could be made that a small group improvisor doesn't need this, but suddenly you start limiting the heads you can play, as well as your musical options when improvising). Reliably, in tune, with a good sound. One does not achieve this by fighting the instrument in order to gain some kind of holy grail level of strength and power.

As you touched upon slightly, achieving this register is far more about balance and equilibrium. Managing to maintain relaxation and a sighing breath whilst increasing the level of compression and (slightly) reducing the size of the aperture.

My opinion is that, when you learn to release the concept of 'strength/power/muscle' and 'trying' 'aiming for' 'snatching at' this register and instead opt to 'allow it' to speak exactly as you would approach the C two octaves below, you will find what right now is seemingly a great challenge (and achievement) for you becomes something very ordinary and simple.

All the best
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you don't need muscular strength in your embouchure, why did earl d. irons plaster the claim on the front of his exercise book?
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't doubt that there are folks (a few) that can play plenty high with relatively little strain. Others can give themselves a hernia trying to get above the staff. Most players lie somewhere in between. For them, there certainly seems to be a variety of ways to strengthen to get higher, louder and more accurate.

I do enjoy the notion that range in some ways needs to be discovered rather than built. That until you find the knack, it's entirely possible for you to develop the strength of Hercules and still not have any facility in the upper register. This is still largely a mystery to me, but it does seem to bear out in what I've seen and read.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
i have been trying to play to high C for quite a stretch and have finally cleaned up the note and everything under it. hallelujah.
it is the regular soap opera of trumpet practice, it's hard to have good practice, it's hard to increase range, and then you get a little range and everything that took muscular effort whistles out easily. some sort of yin/yang deal no doubt. then once you get your highest note the next half step is right there needing only moderate effort to grab. earl irons isn't kidding about the muscular embouchure. it comes in handy.


Nice job of it, Chuck!!!




cheiden wrote:
I do enjoy the notion that range in some ways needs to be discovered rather than built. That until you find the knack, it's entirely possible for you to develop the strength of Hercules and still not have any facility in the upper register.


Yes, that's true. One can have the strength but not have the coordination. But note that until one develops the strength required, it is impossible to develop the coordination required. An extreme example of this would be someone who wants to learn to perform on the rings as a gymnast but can't even do a single pull-up. How's he going to learn to be coordinated on those rings?!

High notes take a combination of strength and coordination. I think the average human being has enough face and blowing strength to play to at least a High C, and more likely a good High D or even E if the coordination side of it is mastered. That is a big, big "if" as Chuck's long, tenacious, and ultimately successful quest shows. And extraordinary levels of blowing and facial strength are required to play High C's, if one desires to be able to play them for more than a few seconds without getting worn out (aka: to have endurance).

The better we develop the coordination, the less strength is required. I think that is what LSOfanboy is alluding to.

There does reach a point in the upper register where extraordinary levels of strength are needed, both in terms of embouchure, and in even more so in terms of blowing strength to play the notes. The average person walking down the street does not have the base level strength required to play a full power G above High C and certainly not a Double High C. That takes the right kind of developmental practice, both in terms of strength and coordination development, to achieve. And patience - it cannot happen overnight.

One of my current students is a great example of this. He had his first lesson with me in December 2017 (about a year ago). When he came to me had had a playable register up to about a D above High C (and sometimes a good E). His goal was to be able to handle any Big Band Lead Trumpet Part that went up to G. In the past few days, he's been sending me videos of him doing the Part II exercises from Lesson 22 of Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach book up to good, full power Double A's. To get there, he's practiced what I assigned him (a new Lesson Plan every two weeks) for the past year, a routine that started out at about 50 minutes of playing per day, and is currently about an hour and a half of playing a day (not counting resting time between the sub-routines).

Cheers,

John Mohan
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you are better off at the gym doing curls because embouchure strength is an odd and baffling subject.
pops has explained the high register in these terms. first you would like to play with relaxed cheeks and have minimal effort getting out the lower register. as you ascend you will need to engage pops' keys to the high register such as abdominal compression. that will allow you another few notes. at the very top of what you can do, and you are searching for getting knack on the note, you will then need a pinch of embouchure strength. you will need to use those muscles and on the other hand use them wisely and sparingly as overuse is the road to ruin. when you finish learning to fish around for your note it is then a candidate for being played with much less effort. it is muscular and then it isn't very muscular and leads to discussions such as this one where opposing viewpoints are talking about the same thing.
what the heck are pops' high register keys, abdominal compression and use of the tongue are all that come to mind.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
playing high notes requires 1) technic, coordination and 2) some strength, both in chops and respiratory muscles.
But to play the same high notes, FF and holding them, you still need technic and coordination, but this time more strength (i mean strength parameter becomes more important).
if you stay away from practicing, you'll lose more power in the high register, than range.
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mohrt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:

One of my current students is a great example of this. He had his first lesson with me in December 2017 (about a year ago). When he came to me had had a playable register up to about a D above High C (and sometimes a good E). His goal was to be able to handle any Big Band Lead Trumpet Part that went up to G. In the past few days, he's been sending me videos of him doing the Part II exercises from Lesson 22 of Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach book up to good, full power Double A's. To get there, he's practiced what I assigned him (a new Lesson Plan every two weeks) for the past year, a routine that started out at about 50 minutes of playing per day, and is currently about an hour and a half of playing a day (not counting resting time between the sub-routines).


That would be me! And I'll just comment, it's not just the SA book that got me there, it was also the coaching from Mr. Mohan that was a key ingredient. Double C is now on my radar
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LakeTahoeTrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mohrt wrote:
John Mohan wrote:

One of my current students is a great example of this. He had his first lesson with me in December 2017 (about a year ago). When he came to me had had a playable register up to about a D above High C (and sometimes a good E). His goal was to be able to handle any Big Band Lead Trumpet Part that went up to G. In the past few days, he's been sending me videos of him doing the Part II exercises from Lesson 22 of Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach book up to good, full power Double A's. To get there, he's practiced what I assigned him (a new Lesson Plan every two weeks) for the past year, a routine that started out at about 50 minutes of playing per day, and is currently about an hour and a half of playing a day (not counting resting time between the sub-routines).


That would be me! And I'll just comment, it's not just the SA book that got me there, it was also the coaching from Mr. Mohan that was a key ingredient. Double C is now on my radar


Awesome! Congratulations to you as well as the OP for climbing the ladder!
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's excellent that you're making a breakthrough - I would concur with LSO to the extent that I don't think you've truly got a handle on the how/why of how you got there. I believe you're doing certain things differently that you aren't directly aware of.

I have a very clear recollection of the process of my own range struggles when high C was something I could hit but it never felt sure or secure. If you'd asked me to pick one off it would be very iffy if it was going to be there and wouldn't feel anchored and secure even if I got it.

I was practicing hours and hours daily, it wasn't a matter of building "muscular chops". What's different now is the mechanics of how I play and being aware of specific things I do, something I'm always refining. Everything about the mechanics of how I play now is different than back then. I also altered (shortened) my front upper incisors and changed my placement more toward the center.

I think the typical methodology with exercises is the hope that the chops will sort themselves out and you'll end up doing what you need to more or less by reflex, but I think you're a lot better off with a direct awareness of what you're doing. At least that's how it is for me.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ed Kennedy"]

C C Rider

Joe Namath Ann-Margret

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhT-ArBN3XY
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Harry Hilgers"]
Ed Kennedy wrote:


C C Rider

Joe Namath Ann-Margret

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhT-ArBN3XY


Woof!
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