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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | California, of course. |
And this. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think players struggling to play high notes kills a lot more brain cells than the lead in their mouthpieces. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | I think players struggling to play high notes kills a lot more brain cells than the lead in their mouthpieces. |
LOL _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 555
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Ed Kennedy wrote: | Many brass alloys contain a small amount of lead because it acts as a lubricant in the machining process. As Mr Becker pointed out it is not a problem unless there is exposed brass where your lips contact the mouthpiece. Replate or replace. |
Also this. Among the first things my elementary band director said to new brass players was to make sure the mouthpiece was plated properly. Back then (early '70's) the concern was "brass poisoning," but whatever that was supposed to mean, it had merit then, and does still today. Replate or Replace.
When Jim New was still at Kanstul, I had him manufacture a custom tuba mouthpiece for me, their model 18, copied from the Bach, but with a 1.28 cup instead of the stock 1.26. When I received it, someone in his department had buffed it too hard through the silverplate, exposing the brass. They replated at no charge. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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O00Joe Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 364 Location: Houston & Austin, Texas
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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If there ends up being class actions lawsuits, some of these companies might be put out of business. Ugh, this is probably a huge waste of time regardless. _________________ 1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68
Last edited by O00Joe on Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 724 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Symptoms of lead poisoning include developmental delays, abdominal pain, neurologic changes, and irritability.
Sounds like many of the trumpet players I know. 🤪 |
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amzi Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2010 Posts: 143 Location: NorCal
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I first became aware of this listening to a radio interview this morning. If I remember correctly the mouthpieces were soaked in water then the water was tested and revealed the leaching of a couple of micrograms of lead. No mention of how much water or how long it was soaked.
I'm not worried about lead contamination, I'm concerned with mouthpiece coast and availability in California. These sorts of groups have unbelievable power with our legislature and Governor. This kind of law suit is likely to result in a new state bureaucracy created to insure compliance with a 0 lead tolerance in the brass used in mouthpieces. And the manufacturers will requited to pay for the testing, just like gun manufacturers are.
Remember, this is the state that believe the color of a gun finish somehow makes a difference in the safety of the firearm. _________________ Recording Olds Trumpet
Bach Stradivarius ML 37
Bach Stradivarius CML 236
Bach Stradivarius Bass Trumpet
Holton T171 Alto Trumpet
Yamaha 610 Eb/D Trumpet
Kanstul 920 Picc. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | I am struggling to find something polite to say about this sort of nonsense. Are we to believe that after millennia of lead-containing alloys used by humans without harm (including trumpeters for over 5 centuries - hey, how many of you have a raw brass horn, perhaps vintage with lead solder, that have in your hands all the time?), suddenly the laws of physics have been repealed (as one freshman congresswoman famously told TV cameras her "gutless" peers needed to step up and do a few years ago) and those lead atoms now have such an affinity for hemoglobin that they will separate out of the brass, like zinc in an acid bath, and jump into your body. (Anyone's vintage or Taylor solder joints fall apart because your hand sucked all that solder out?) Its ridiculous. Yes, some famous musicians probably died of lead poisoning (like Mozart), but it was from the pure lead seals on booze bottles that haven't been used in a century or two.! |
Perhaps part of the struggle is due to cognitive issues related to lead poisoning?
Seriously, how do we know there hasn’t been harm? Lead in paint and water often affects brain function. Small amounts may cause small unnoticeable damage that we cannot detect since we don’t know the persons true potential.
I live in California and I find much of what goes on here as silly. This may or may not be silly. |
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amzi Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2010 Posts: 143 Location: NorCal
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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What I do know is that 10 or so years ago I was shooting in 2 or 3 competitive pistol leagues, and frequently making it to a night of practice in an indoor range--all with unjacketed lead ammunition. I also shot almost daily at an outdoor range and was playing my trumpet a couple of hours a day. Because of the prolonged exposure to lead dust in the indoor range I was tested for lead in my blood stream. Guess what, no appreciable amount of lead was found.
I'm pretty sure that having contact with a mouthpiece is not a health risk. _________________ Recording Olds Trumpet
Bach Stradivarius ML 37
Bach Stradivarius CML 236
Bach Stradivarius Bass Trumpet
Holton T171 Alto Trumpet
Yamaha 610 Eb/D Trumpet
Kanstul 920 Picc. |
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so what Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 617 Location: near Dallas
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Lead in Mouthpieces |
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You know, of course, that California Prop 65 required labeling coffee as a carcinogen. This is despite many, many well done studies that show that people live LONGER if the drink coffee. And, they get LESS liver cancer if they drink coffee. That's right. |
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so what Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 617 Location: near Dallas
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Lead in Mouthpieces |
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We've found that there is LEAD on earth. We have to get rid of it. No one should be on earth. Get off now, while you still have a chance at a normal life. |
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boog Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2014 Posts: 247
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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In between teaching gigs, a few years ago, I worked as an electronic tech in a plant that made circuit boards for telecommunications equipment. I even ran the flow soldering room there, as well as repair and return of customer equipment. Solder smoke and handling lead everyday....guess I am not going to make it to 180 like that coffee guy out in Seattle! I turned 70 last year and am still playing the trumpet and euphonium...should I switch to plastic mouthpieces?
Dang, as kids we used to play with mercury...it's a marvel that we are still alive!
We have bigger problems in life other than lead poisoning from playing a brass instrument.
The only lead poisoning most people have to worry about is a speeding bullet!
I was admonished as a kid to "get the lead out"...and go practice! |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:58 am Post subject: |
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I am surprised that no one has pointed out the bright side in this. We now have an excuse to limit our practice time.
Not that I need an excuse... |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3635 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:15 am Post subject: |
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I did some checking on this after my colleague in the shop had seen it on a major Bay Area TV news channel. The "Center for Environmental Health" was quoted by the reporter, so I took a look at their Web site in an effort to determine what sort of research they based their assertion on.
Turns out there is a blogger in Oakland, CA who is an anti-lead activist and has a kit with which she tests objects for lead. She tested what appeared to be a Monette trumpet mouthpiece with no plating (raw brass) and came up with a lead content reading that was (she asserts) far above the government standard for allowable exposure.
This one test, as far as I can tell, was what the CFEH based their conclusion on!
While I have every sympathy for this lady, who became an activist (she says) after her son was damaged by lead paint exposure (which really is a serious problem) I can't say this one test convinces me.
I sent her an inquiry as to whether she tested plated mouthpieces and hope that she answers my question. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:55 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: |
Turns out there is a blogger in Oakland, CA who is an anti-lead activist and has a kit with which she tests objects for lead. She tested what appeared to be a Monette trumpet mouthpiece with no plating (raw brass) and came up with a lead content reading that was (she asserts) far above the government standard for allowable exposure. |
Can you post a link so we can see the blog? _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3635 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Here's the link to Ms. Rubin's original blog post:
https://tamararubin.com/2017/01/does-my-childs-trumpet-mouthpiece-contain-unsafe-levels-of-lead/
There are two related posts at the bottom of the article.
PLEASE, people, be respectful of this person. I don't happen to agree with her viewpoint on this particular subject, but I respect an activist who's trying to do the right thing. None of us gets everything right.
No professional musician, teacher, or music salesperson would ever advocate that students play on a raw or worn-through mouthpiece rim. There's the rare problem of brass poisoning, which is an allergic reaction as I understand it.
My question is still : Is there any lead exposure from the base metal with a properly plated mouthpiece? I suspect the answer is no, but I'd like to see testing.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3635 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Another lead exposure question that occurred to me reading Ms. Rubin's post was about the instrument itself. Many more people play worn horns with raw spots where lacquer/plating is missing. My current horn has no finish.
She did a test on her son's old Selmer K-Modified and found no lead in the alloy used to make the horn. So it may be limited, as cheiden noted, to the 360 alloy used for mouthpieces. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 904
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | I did some checking on this after my colleague in the shop had seen it on a major Bay Area TV news channel. The "Center for Environmental Health" was quoted by the reporter, so I took a look at their Web site in an effort to determine what sort of research they based their assertion on.
Turns out there is a blogger in Oakland, CA who is an anti-lead activist and has a kit with which she tests objects for lead. She tested what appeared to be a Monette trumpet mouthpiece with no plating (raw brass) and came up with a lead content reading that was (she asserts) far above the government standard for allowable exposure.
This one test, as far as I can tell, was what the CFEH based their conclusion on!
While I have every sympathy for this lady, who became an activist (she says) after her son was damaged by lead paint exposure (which really is a serious problem) I can't say this one test convinces me.
I sent her an inquiry as to whether she tested plated mouthpieces and hope that she answers my question. |
Finally, a common sense, logical approach to determine the validity of the "conclusions" reported on the TV news channels. AND FROM CALIFORNIA, TOO. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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adagiotrumpet wrote: | yourbrass wrote: | I did some checking on this after my colleague in the shop had seen it on a major Bay Area TV news channel. The "Center for Environmental Health" was quoted by the reporter, so I took a look at their Web site in an effort to determine what sort of research they based their assertion on.
Turns out there is a blogger in Oakland, CA who is an anti-lead activist and has a kit with which she tests objects for lead. She tested what appeared to be a Monette trumpet mouthpiece with no plating (raw brass) and came up with a lead content reading that was (she asserts) far above the government standard for allowable exposure.
This one test, as far as I can tell, was what the CFEH based their conclusion on!
While I have every sympathy for this lady, who became an activist (she says) after her son was damaged by lead paint exposure (which really is a serious problem) I can't say this one test convinces me.
I sent her an inquiry as to whether she tested plated mouthpieces and hope that she answers my question. |
Finally, a common sense, logical approach to determine the validity of the "conclusions" reported on the TV news channels. AND FROM CALIFORNIA, TOO. |
+1 _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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