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What will you do when they come for your mouthpiece?


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amzi
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:48 pm    Post subject: What will you do when they come for your mouthpiece? Reply with quote

A San Francisco Bay Area environmental group has filed suit against 12 mouthpiece manufacturers and two mouthpiece retailers. I haven't read the names of the manufacturers, but the retailers are Union Square Music and Guitar Center. The stated goal of of the environmental group is to remove all traces of lead from the environment. Being a citizen of California I suspect that will lead to companies simply not selling brass instrument mouthpieces in California, or companies producing California Only mouthpieces, or companies only selling mouthpieces in California that are made of materials that contain absolutely no lead. All of this will result in higher prices for California brass musicians. And what will they come after next--raw brass instruments, silver plated instruments, brass instruments with worn lacquer? Indeed, will lacquered horns escape unscathed? Maybe lacquered horns will have to be tested by the state (at the manufacturers expense) to verify that the lacquer/epoxy coating that is used effectively eliminates lead leaching when held. I know this will likely have little impact on anyone other than California musicians, but it is aggravating. And, with what the state has already done to mess up firearms and ammunition; cars, trucks and fuel; boat motors; etc., etc., etc.

As something of an aside you should probably be aware that every mouthpiece tested contained such minute traces of lead that according to industry standards the brass is considered lead free.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At current prices of silver, perhaps making everything from silver-copper alloy (e.g., shibuichi) could become an alternative.
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amzi
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some additional information from The Center for Environmental Health. Apparently two of the mouthpieces tested were saxophone mouthipeces, the JodyJazz and the Theo Wannes. Here are the trumpet mouthpiece manufacturers that they have filed suit against Bach, Schilke, Warburton, Denis Wick, Curry, Faxx, S.E. Shires, Parduba, Assymetric, and Best Brass.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might annoy a few people, but why am I not surprised this is happening in California?

Brad
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuisance suit.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone is hating on California for its environmental policies. I'm nearly 60 and remember when the smog would blot out the sun. I do agree that some of the advocates get overzealous from time to time but in general life is way better now.
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pinstriper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Croquethed wrote:
Nuisance suit.


Would that this was only a nuisance of well meaning dingbats.

This is a shakedown for money, at the expense of reality.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm buying stock in Kelly!
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would swallow it to prove there is no danger!
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JohnD
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a lead mouthpiece is something different....go tell 'em...whatever they smoke, they should take less....
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TrumpetNerd2357
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CEH article about the issue recommends stainless steel pieces. I have tried one top and two backbores made of SS, but found them a little lackluster. They feel about the same (some notable differences, but not enough to impact playability), but the sound is something entirely different (if everyone switched to SS today, our definition of a “good sound” would definitely have to change)
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jetjaguar
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does the lead get through the silver plating?
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amzi
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They soaked a mouthpiece in water then tested the water and found that it contained lead. Kind of sketchy on the details of the exact process.
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Tivolian
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amzi wrote:
They soaked a mouthpiece in water then tested the water and found that it contained lead. Kind of sketchy on the details of the exact process.


So, you're not concerned about the possibility of some degree of lead toxicity from this? Think about some fourth-grader who starts playing trumpet, plays every day for years, has other lead exposures (e.g. from lead paint residue, air pollution), and suffers some brain damage as a result. I'm not saying that exposure from a mouthpiece will lead to toxicity (I have no idea how much lead one might imbibe nor how that compares to toxic levels), but it seems just common sense to regulate any identified sources. Lead exposures are much higher in lower income communities where regulations are relaxed or not affordable. I'd urge you to be a little slower to conclude that these concerns have no merit.
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Speed
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I am not concerned about lead in mouthpieces.

The person doing this test has released no significant information about her testing procedures. Did she check to see how much lead was in the water before putting the mouthpiece in it?

There are some serious problems with lead toxicity from old plumbing, and to a lesser extent, lead paint. Paint with lead in it has not been available for a few decades. Are there really many places that have not been repainted in that length of time?

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Tivolian
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
No, I am not concerned about lead in mouthpieces.

The person doing this test has released no significant information about her testing procedures. Did she check to see how much lead was in the water before putting the mouthpiece in it?

There are some serious problems with lead toxicity from old plumbing, and to a lesser extent, lead paint. Paint with lead in it has not been available for a few decades. Are there really many places that have not been repainted in that length of time?

Take care,
Marc Speed


Yes, everywhere, especially in low income neighborhoods. Lead was taken out of gasoline decades ago too, and there's residue all over the place. It sticks around for a long time, and so do exposures.

Sure, it would be great to see the data. Meantime, I hope folks might think about exposures of others besides themselves and not just write this off as frivolous.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tivolian wrote:
amzi wrote:
They soaked a mouthpiece in water then tested the water and found that it contained lead. Kind of sketchy on the details of the exact process.


So, you're not concerned about the possibility of some degree of lead toxicity from this? Think about some fourth-grader who starts playing trumpet, plays every day for years, has other lead exposures (e.g. from lead paint residue, air pollution), and suffers some brain damage as a result. I'm not saying that exposure from a mouthpiece will lead to toxicity (I have no idea how much lead one might imbibe nor how that compares to toxic levels), but it seems just common sense to regulate any identified sources. Lead exposures are much higher in lower income communities where regulations are relaxed or not affordable. I'd urge you to be a little slower to conclude that these concerns have no merit.


This is exactly what these hype-masters thrive on. "I dont know - SO BAN IT ALL. HURRY!" and "Think of the children". I have been playing for 47 years and remodel old houses. I worry about asbestos, I worry about dioxins from early pesticides, and I worry about a bad back tat blew out trying to use an Aida this Christmas, but not lead in my mouthpiece.

Look at some numbers: Fine crystal glasses and decanters can be between 8 and 24% lead by weight, and the more acidic the liquid placed in them, the more metals will leech. One of the lead compliance tests for beverage containers involves vinegar-level PH liquid for 24 hours. 2500 micrograms/liter is allowed (FDA is reconsidering this as its a bit shocking). Your drinking water is allowed to contain 50 micrograms per liter. The closest any revelation from this testing has come to acknowledging a level is to say "we are talking micrograms". People usually only speak in that way if the number is not very many. And if you can go to the tap right now and pour a glass with 50 micrograms per liter safely, 5 or 10 in how long? maybe 24 hours - they wont say what the soak time was, or the PH, why is that suddenly a catastrophe?

But this is all about hype not science. The media is already all over this declaring mouthpieces are poisoning the kids. And then there is the "I don't know so it must be bad" mentality that is going to leave us with no mouthieces of any decent quality unless someone steps back and says simply "prove it".

Meanwhile, the hypemasters behind this are probably sitting back celebrating with wine in expensive crystal glasses, an acid that wil leech that lead at an alarming rate - but don't expect to hear them cry about that any time soon.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tivolian wrote:

Sure, it would be great to see the data. Meantime, I hope folks might think about exposures of others besides themselves and not just write this off as frivolous.


Call a spade a spade.

My wife and son aren't being poisoned by the lead in my silver plated mouthpieces, nor is anyone else.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
No, I am not concerned about lead in mouthpieces.

The person doing this test has released no significant information about her testing procedures. Did she check to see how much lead was in the water before putting the mouthpiece in it?


Its actually 2 different testers "work" merged. (One prompted the action by the greedier other) CEH did the water soak and wont admit PH, time or actual levels. The other, "she", is interviewed in this article:

https://www.webmd.com/special-reports/lead-dangers/20170906/lead-consumer-products

In it, she admits she is "not trying to be scientific". The person who started all this is using a tool designed for detecting lead under layers of paint while doing home inspections. It determines lead in material - presence only. Not accessibility, not concentration, and not the amount that will leech on contact with humans, foodstuffs, etc.

The CEH testing methodology might at least be somewhat valid - but now they need to quantify time, PH and level so that can be compared to acceptable standards.

The part missing in all of this, including my saying water soaks are a valid test, is that IF YOU ARE SUCKING ON THE MOUTHPIECE, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
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