Does anybody (besides you) care whether lionel (or anyone else) could play this adolescent game?
There may be some pedagogical use in learning to play a high G for twenty-five seconds, if it helps to develop relevant musical abilities (such as Bill Chase showed on Handbags, which seems very relevant despite your cursory dismissal), but the notion that this stunt demonstrates "superiority" is absurd, as is your idea that it's a prerequisite for criticizing anyone. Once something like that is posted on TH, both positive and negative responses can be expected, and there is no 25-second high-G audition requirement before responding.
No, I'm pretty sure that I cannot hold that high G for twenty-five seconds. And no, I'm not even going to try. Yet I can still ridicule the notion that this self-aggrandizing challenge confers any sort of superiority. It seems like more of a drinking game than a musical effort. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Does anybody (besides you) care whether lionel (or anyone else) could play this adolescent game?
There may be some pedagogical use in learning to play a high G for twenty-five seconds, if it helps to develop relevant musical abilities (such as Bill Chase showed on Handbags, which seems very relevant despite your cursory dismissal), but the notion that this stunt demonstrates "superiority" is absurd, as is your idea that it's a prerequisite for criticizing anyone. Once something like that is posted on TH, both positive and negative responses can be expected, and there is no 25-second high-G audition requirement before responding.
No, I'm pretty sure that I cannot hold that high G for twenty-five seconds. And no, I'm not even going to try. Yet I can still ridicule the notion that this self-aggrandizing challenge confers any sort of superiority. It seems like more of a drinking game than a musical effort.
Hi MM55,
I'm beginning to feel like you have something against me, I can't recall a single time you've given a positive response to one of my posts. Why such hostility?
For the record, I think you've entirely misunderstood my last post. No, I don't place great weight on whether or not someone can play a 25 second double G or not, but in fairness to those 2 young players I don't think they do either. To me the videos all seemed good natured and fun. What surprises me is the fact that some people suddenly take some kind of offence at such videos being posted and then look to criticise the players involved.
Lionel made a number of derogatory remarks about both players (both of whom have other videos on youtube which display genuine competency on both their parts), including suggesting that neither player produced a good sound and were potentially unable to play anything other than a high G. My point to him was that, let's face it, its actually quite impressive to do that (whether you care for it or not) and so we should have an air of self reflection and humility before simply laying into two young players like that as though you are 'superior' despite no evidence to support your claims..
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject:
The long holding of a note is not exactly without merit. Caruso had exercises where the student would hold notes for over a minute, up to and including the G over high C. In keeping with one of the basic premises of the Caruso approach, there was never an intent that the result would be musical in and of itself. The intent was always that the practicing of such exercises would prepare the student for certain situations when his intent was to make music.
Just for reference, the notes were always to be played as softly as possible.
Lionel made a number of derogatory remarks about both players
I do not see where he did. What remarks were those?
Quote:
including suggesting that neither player produced a good sound and were potentially unable to play anything other than a high G
So by asking if they can he is suggesting that they can not?
Wow, you read a lot into a question. (Among other things.)
Hi Darryl,
No you're right; it was too far to use the term 'derogatory remarks', I apologise to Lionel.
However he did say '... No squeaks like in the two examples...' along with a generally negative response to the videos (example 'Can you get a big sound on not only the G but all the notes below it'? as if the players in the examples are simply one trick ponies). As I said, a very quick check on both channels will prove that both those individuals are very capable of such playing.
It would be nice if we could avoid yet another thread deteriorating into petty arguments, especially since we're simply looking at some decent players having a bit of fun.
I must agree that at times some of these questions do imply some superiority on the authors part, which may or may not be true (internet hides and some are not always honest in self assessment). The fact that with the exception of a few contributors that have a professional reputation we are all unknown quantities with unknown skills. I think there is a way to say that it is important to have a full sound throughout the range without making an implication that they themselves are weaker there. Seems like the way we phrase things can often result in mis-understandings and some hard feelings. I know my wishes won’t change much here but a change in attitude (giving each other a break) might make us all a little less cranky.
Let’s all pump a little sunshine for awhile
Rod😉
Does anybody (besides you) care whether lionel (or anyone else) could play this adolescent game?
There may be some pedagogical use in learning to play a high G for twenty-five seconds, if it helps to develop relevant musical abilities (such as Bill Chase showed on Handbags, which seems very relevant despite your cursory dismissal), but the notion that this stunt demonstrates "superiority" is absurd, as is your idea that it's a prerequisite for criticizing anyone. Once something like that is posted on TH, both positive and negative responses can be expected, and there is no 25-second high-G audition requirement before responding.
No, I'm pretty sure that I cannot hold that high G for twenty-five seconds. And no, I'm not even going to try. Yet I can still ridicule the notion that this self-aggrandizing challenge confers any sort of superiority. It seems like more of a drinking game than a musical effort.
Seems to make sense. Thank you for attempting to pull this topic out of the gutter mm55. In fact I'd much rather respond to a positive post such as yours than one that seems more intent upon dragging the line of discussion into the lower reaches.
I don't know how anyone inferred a "derogatory" tone to my previous words. As I recall? I had said something to the effect that I didn't know if either of the two high note players COULD get a big sound in their upper registers. Maybe they can. i just don't know. And I didn't feel like fishing through other videos. Too complicated.
Granted there even are times when a person described as a "squeak artist" can earn a sizeable paycheck even if he can't exactly blow the roof off the arena. Back in the late 1970's I met exactly such a person. He played well and although the bell of his trumpet did at times seem to half swallow his microphone? Who cares? The overall effect was musical. He kept my friends in lots of paid gigs too. And while his method or style wouldn't be my preference? There certainly isn't anything inherently wrong with using amplification to bolster a high note phrase.
As for whether I could blow double C's for a similar length of time? Yes I have done this. Some twelve years ago I circulated a VCR tape with exactly that. One was a double C held for around 27 seconds. The other was a triple C held for abt 12 seconds. Oddly enough I did need to kinda "rig" my chops a bit to pull the trick off. That and the triple C didn't slot dead perfectly on pitch but it wasn't far off either. Wasn't splattered either. Besides notes that high are played only for entertainment purposes only. Even Cat and Maynard splattered a few "trippa" notes. No one cares.
The reason I "rigged" my chops back in the day was twofold. I was sincerely experimenting with a more efficient embouchure setting. That and my regular chops were better suited for lead playing up to a high G. Not the DHC. When going for notes above high G on my regular embouchure the resulting note(s) were generally pretty loud. Very useful for lead playing but not so easy to hold a very high note indefinitely. My guess is that that at that time the longest I could sustain a DHC at good volume would have been about 10 to 15 seconds.
And yet in the final analysis none of even the above is even relevant. As since that major injury to.my chops last year? I've been forced to change to an embouchure system completely different from anything that I had ever worked with either professionally or experimentally! Starting from before the beginning of last year in Jan, 2018 !
But if someone is interested in what high note I could sustain on my new (and final!) embouchure which I play on today? Well keep in mind that it is only about 13 months old. Regardless of that fact it does show good register. My tone is pretty good too. For someone playing onna 'virgin' embouchure. It generally can sustain notes and simple melodies in the area above high C all the way up to E and F above double C. It should be noted however that since I was forced to start all over from scratch in Dec, 2017? Well I'm certainly not playing at my potential at present. Though improving by leaps and bounds.
Before the accident? I had good register. Pretty damned accurate up to a high G. And able to cap phrases with high A's at times. It wasn't the most efficient of embouchures but in reality,
How many of us really get to choose our chop setting? In fact we just don't. Or only rarely do. I consider myself fortunate. Not because of that horrible injury! That was damned depressing and debilitating. At least at the time. No I feel fortunate because after sustaining an essentially career ending embouchure problem it literally forced me to discover a way of "playing correctly". To use either Roy Roman or Roy Stevens words.
Thank you all very much. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
It´s hard to believe that you guys are discussing this topic so seriously. As indicated by LSOfanboy in the initial post, this 25sec-whatever-g-challenge is just some fun stuff.
No one ever claimed that there is some musicality or usefulness or anything involved.
I highly doubt that the two competitors (BTW the only ones here who actually have proven to the general public that they can hold this note for 25 seconds) claim this to be music. Or useful. It´s just a stupid youtube challenge with a trumpet involved.
And it´s impressive. At least I am impressed. On a good day I can manage to squeak out that note for about two seconds or so. Hence I am impressed. And I still would be impressed if this note would be the only note they could play on a trumpet. Actually, that would probably be even more impressive. And not only funny but hilarious.
Cheers,
Martin
It´s hard to believe that you guys are discussing this topic so seriously.
It's hard to believe you actually think we are discussing this topic so "seriously"
TrpM wrote:
As indicated by LSOfanboy in the initial post, this 25sec-whatever-g-challenge is just some fun stuff.
No one ever claimed that there is some musicality or usefulness or anything involved.
I highly doubt that the two competitors (BTW the only ones here who actually have proven to the general public that they can hold this note for 25 seconds) claim this to be music. Or useful. It´s just a stupid youtube challenge with a trumpet involved.
And it´s impressive. At least I am impressed. On a good day I can manage to squeak out that note for about two seconds or so. Hence I am impressed. And I still would be impressed if this note would be the only note they could play on a trumpet. Actually, that would probably be even more impressive. And not only funny but hilarious.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:20 pm Post subject:
Alex Brain wrote:
Hi,
This discussion was brought to my attention by a friend of mine.
I’m both grateful and humbled by the response the video has received in a relatively short space of time.
Generally, I don’t intend to post much on this site, but am now available to contact should anyone be interested in any of the videos uploaded to the Trumpet Brain channel, or have any suggestions for new content they would be keen to see.
I would, however, like to take this opportunity to offer a brief introduction to the channel and the ‘Trumpet Challenge’ segment that is included.
Trumpet Brain is a channel that will incorporate a whole range of trumpet-related content. It is my ambition that, within a year or so, there will be a number of different video ‘series’ aimed at varied areas of the trumpet-playing community. Each ‘series’ will have its own character and target audience; I am by no means expecting every ‘series’ to appeal to every viewer, which is the reason why I have chosen to categorise the videos in this manner.
‘Trumpet Challenge’ is one such series. As the description on the video tries to outline; this is not something anyone is taking very seriously, we don’t think that its an important part of playing, nor do we believe there is any musical value in it, and we sincerely hope that its not something that will ever be tested on the concert platform! It is merely an act of curiosity that is intended to offer a subject of discussion for those who find it interesting. If its not your cup of tea, that is entirely understandable and I would be the first to advise that you avoid watching any of the upcoming ‘Trumpet Challenge’ videos, they will all be along the same rather silly lines!
Over the next few months there will be some more serious content and, hopefully, genuinely musical additions as well. Furthermore, we are looking at releasing some tutorial videos as well as a couple of other larger projects too. The aim is that every trumpet player will be able to find some content that is interesting/enjoyable/inspirational or helpful to them somewhere on the channel, even if they choose to ignore certain series (such as Trumpet Challenge).
The last thing I would like to say is that I am more than happy to answer questions and discuss points raised about the channel, either on the forums or by private message, but I’m only prepared to engage with people genuinely interested in the channel and the trumpet in general. If you wish to criticise me, the channel, or simply want to let us know that you have stronger chops or a better sound; you have absolutely every right to do so and I can respect that entirely, but I ask that you also respect my right to ignore your comments.
Thanks for your time. I hope you will enjoy the Trumpet Brain channel as it grows over the next year.
Sincerely,
Alex Brain
Hi Alex,
Just my two cents here: If someone looks at this video in the spirit that you describe, ie, just fun, ok. Personally, I think it’s kind of silly, but as you said, it’s not going to be interesting to everyone.
But, and here’s the but: we all know that younger players often get caught up in an obsession with the upper register, sometimes to the detriment of other aspects of their playing. Just attend any music conference where there are instrument manufacturers displaying and letting people try out horns if you want to hear some really annoying “screeching.”
I teach private lessons, and while I believe and stress to students that upper register (the definition of which is subjective) capabilities are an important part of being a good player (depending to some extent on the musical genre), a great top end is fairly useless without control, intonation, technique, musicianship....you get the idea, and probably agree.
I wish you the best of luck with your channel, but speaking only for myself, videos like this “challenge” seem very “high school” and are of little interest to me.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Thanks for chiming in Alex! I haven't heard someone do the Abblasen fanfare on Bb trumpet before, that was a neat addition to your channel.
Regarding your video that kicked off this thread: As I've thought about it, I do recall guitarists, percussionists, and low brass players engaging in various 'musical drinking games' reminiscent of 'our' (trumpet players) fixation on high notes....and don't even bring up the flautist in "American Pie"...oops, I just did! Thus, I've come around the view that's it's a fun thing to do for some of us, and that's what is important. Heck, my old undergrad teacher and I have occasionally traded DHC recordings for fun as well. Kudos to you for continuing in the legacy of the Tastee Bros!
(On that topic, does anyone have some old bootleg Tastee Bros recordings I could obtain? I'm FaceBook friends with both of them, but I cannot find their Tastee recordings anywhere, not for several years at least...)
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 438 Location: Cheyenne WY
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject:
Competitive trumpeting has been around for awhile. Let us bow our heads and remember one of the founders of such feats:
Herodoros of Megara. Herodoros of Megara won nine or ten successive Olympiads in the trumpeter’s competition (328, 324, 320, 316, 312, 308, 304, 300, 296, 292 B.C. )
He did this using only stock bees wax and an uncurled lacquered Greek Salpinx!
Competitive trumpeting has been around for awhile. Let us bow our heads and remember one of the founders of such feats:
Herodoros of Megara. Herodoros of Megara won nine or ten successive Olympiads in the trumpeter’s competition (328, 324, 320, 316, 312, 308, 304, 300, 296, 292 B.C. )
He did this using only stock bees wax and an uncurled lacquered Greek Salpinx!
Herodoros of Megara. Herodoros of Megara won nine or ten successive Olympiads in the trumpeter’s competition (328, 324, 320, 316, 312, 308, 304, 300, 296, 292 B.C. )
He did this using only stock bees wax and an uncurled lacquered Greek Salpinx!
Ancient Greece, back when an alpha angle was really an alpha angle. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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