Mystery: the case of the missing weight (on Conn 6b)

[LaggsZ]

OK, I had such good luck with TH members solving the “mystery” of the many subtle changes between the Holton “Galaxy” vs. the Holton T401, I thought I’d try to solve another horn mystery: that of the Conn 6B Victor. As per this fantastic website (https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn6B196ximage.html):

“The 1957 catalog says the 6B weighs 2 lbs 13 oz., however the later model 6B is definitely quite a bit less heavy than the Connstellation. Possibly the switch from bottom to top spring valves (thereby using less metal in the valve) lightened the instrument. It is also possible that as the 1960's wore on, Conn was forced to reduce cost and did this in part by using somewhat thinner metal thereby lightening the instrument. This would mean that the actual weight of the 6B "drops" at some model year(s).”

Well, did the 6b lose weight only because of the valve re-design? Or did they drop weight by using thinner metal? The latter would possibly mean that the inherent sound of the horn changed as well. Now that seems a mystery worth solving, eh?

A friend’s “late model” 6b was built in Elkhart during the last months of 1970, right before the move to Abilene. It weighs 2 lbs. 8 ½ oz. So, if someone has another "late model” 6b, say from the early to mid 1960s, and the weight is similar, that would mean the weight lose from the “early model” was strictly from the valves. If the weight is between the early model and the 1970 model, then perhaps Conn did try to save $$$ by skimping on the metal.

A small piece of data, for sure, but perhaps of interest to future scholars. So…. and hopefully this doesn’t seem too strange… does anybody have an Conn 6b TOP SPRING VALVES from the early to mid 1960s willing to submit its weight?

[LaggsZ]

OK, I understand that solving this mystery is less important than helping a new trumpet player choose a horn or improve technique. But still, we can't lose this valuable opportunity to set the historical record straight. I'd estimate 5 million trumpet players in the U.S., where maybe 25K have a Conn 6B. Of those, maybe 8K have one made in the early to mid 1960s or late 1950s. Of those, maybe 2K have access to a digital scale. Of those, maybe 5% post on TH. So, a lucky 100 of you have the solution to this mystery in your hands (or in a case somewhere nearby). I'm dreaming big here, but I hope you will you weigh your horn for posterity!

[LaggsZ]

OK, OK. Solving these small mysteries adds to the incremental knowledge about horns that may one day be lost to history. But, for now, I'll give up on this one and not post any more. In the future, anybody out there has one of the Conn 6b horns in question that can help determine any design changes between late 50s and 1970, specifically by weighing the horn, please chime in.

[jhl]

I happen to have two such horns at present (1963 & 1966 -- same valves on both). My digital scale is a retired mailing scale, so not the best, but both weight the same, 2 lbs 9 oz. on the scale. I also happen to have a 1961 Connstellation 28A which is only an ounce or two heavier than the 6B, and not noticeable when playing. The valves on the 6Bs are actually a smidge heavier because of the cork still being used in the 28A of that date. Also have a Connstellation 38A from, I believe, 1967. The valves seem virtually the same design and heft as for the 6Bs. It is my strong impression that the valves on the 6B victor are identical to the valves on the same age Connstellation. The bells thinned out a bit on the later Conns, so maybe that's it. FWIW -- I like the response and sound of the 6B a good deal more than the Connstellations, likely because of the absence of thickness and nickel plating.

[LaggsZ]

Fantastic information, thank you. Assuming your scale is accurate, then it likely that the switch from bottom to top spring valves accounts for all of the weight difference noted by that author. The theory that Conn was forced to reduce material costs by using less metal during the 1960s would be disproven. That is a comforting thought, actually. I like when horns change over time by design, for improvements in function or sound, not because a company is trying to save a few bucks. As to what happened to the horn after the move to Abilene is not clear -- nobody's weighed one of those (but I'm not asking!). Apparently, the 38-models were heavier, and I assumed it was due to the extra layers of plating. I've never played a 38b, for example, but I would like to try one someday. These horns have such history, and as time goes on that history may fade. Thanks again for your help!

[lipshurt]

Connstellation Has a really heavy trigger, two stop rods with 3 nuts each, solid 1/4 inch rods in three places where the bracing is.

Thats your weight right there
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
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[LaggsZ]

Indeed!

[jhl]

Thanks. I forgot about the stop rods and trigger. That's probably 2-3 ounces right there. I guess I just like the brass bell of the 6B more than the nickel plating on the Connstellation bell. I think the 50s Connstellation and Connstellation-style horns play better than the 60s, but the 28A from that period doesn't comfortably play with all cornet mouthpieces and the 6B from the 50s has bottom-sprung valves and a brass rather than coprion leadpipe.