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piston corks and felts - repair question



 
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JetJaguar
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Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: piston corks and felts - repair question Reply with quote

I took my Super Recording a local repair shop that I have used in the past with good results. This time, a new technician worked on it, not the owner, who has done work for my stuff in the past.

One of the things I took it in for was the corks and felts that go on the pistons, under the top valve caps. When I went to pick it up today, the first and third valves are clanging on the up stroke. I opened one and noticed the very thin cork that had been installed. I told the guy manning the store that they are too thin, and not making contact with the upper cap, thus not muffling the normal sound the valve guide makes when it strikes its resting position. The clerk, who did not do the work, said he was told by the repair tech that these thin corks had to be used because otherwise the ports wouldn't line up. They say the valve guides themselves are worn and noisy.

So my positions are:

1. I did not take it for a precision valve alignment. I just want adequate corks that will make contact with the upper caps. If they don't, then they don't even need to be there because they serve no other purpose. Or do they serve some purpose other than making contact with the upper cap to muffle the valve guide sound?

2. I can live with misalignment, in order to have valves that don't clank. When I want precision, I'll probably send it to Flip.

So am I wrong?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, it sounds like you are correct.

For 'whatever reason' the tech decided to work on the corks/felts UNDER the top valve cap - and from your description, you wanted only the corks/felts under the valve buttons to be fixed.
edit: I misunderstood the OP, it appears that the OP did want the corks/felts under the top valve cap serviced.

Look at the valve stems in the UP position - some horns have a 'reference line' on the stem that should be visible just above the top valve cap. I'd GUESS the acceptable range of 'visible' would be from 'just barely visible', to perhaps about 1/64 inch 'above'. The corks/felts under the top cap are what adjusts the port alignment for the UP position.

Returning a 'repaired' horn that in the process acquired clanking valves is not good ...

Jay
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Last edited by JayKosta on Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the OP said:

“One of the things I took it in for was the corks and felts that go on the pistons, under the top valve caps.”

So while I agree that clanking valves would drive me nuts, and it sounds like the tech may have made do with corks he had and might not have done a good job, it sounds like he did what was requested. We also need to remember that while the Super Recording has a reputation as a great player, it IS an older horn, it might need to be sent to someone who specifically can work on that horn. And we don’t know if the tech who did the work is a brass specialist or not, which is exactly why I send my horns to Doctor Valve, even though shipping costs are not cheap.

BTW, to the OP: I have had Flip do his “full enhancement” on my LA Benge, IMO, it’s worth the cost.

Brad
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
and might not have done a good job, it sounds like he did what was requested.


So I should have requested he do a good job?

Again, is it or is it not the purpose of those corks to make contact with the top valve cap?
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
and might not have done a good job, it sounds like he did what was requested.


So I should have requested he do a good job?

Again, is it or is it not the purpose of those corks to make contact with the top valve cap?


Of COURSE not. Hey, I would be as unhappy with the results as you are, I was just mentioning to the other poster that you did want the corks and felts under the top caps replaced. Are the results you got acceptable? NO.

Again, I agree that valves that double as accessory percussion are unacceptable, but it sounds to me like you might need to take or send it to someone else. I have not played a Super Recording, from what I have heard they are great, it might be worth your time and money to send it to a highly regarded brass tech; Flip, Steve Winans, etc., I would.

Brad
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
jetjaguar wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
and might not have done a good job, it sounds like he did what was requested.


So I should have requested he do a good job?

Again, is it or is it not the purpose of those corks to make contact with the top valve cap?


Of COURSE not. Hey, I would be as unhappy with the results as you are, I was just mentioning to the other poster that you did want the corks and felts under the top caps replaced. Are the results you got acceptable? NO.

Again, I agree that valves that double as accessory percussion are unacceptable, but it sounds to me like you might need to take or send it to someone else.

Brad


I'm considering asking them to take their corks and felts back, refund the labour just for the corks (I won't chain myself to their counter naked over that), and go to a different tech. But I want to know how right I am first. It comes down to whether there is any point in installing corks and felts that don't hit the top cap.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, those 'under the top valve cap' corks/felts ARE supposed to make contact on the up-stroke and to adjust the UP position valve port/casing alignment. The corks/felts also are supposed to serve as 'bumpers' to prevent clanking - so they are supposed to 'bump against' the top valve cap when proper alignment is reached.

I think that any competent tech should have the necessary corks/felts to stop the clanking, and maintain acceptable valve alignment. Or the tech should be able to make the needed pieces - e.g. sand over-sized corks to fit. It's not rocket science, merely attention to detail and striving to do a good job.

Jay
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much Jay
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B6Bob
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Joined: 13 Jan 2019
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Location: Macomb, MI USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a individual on eBay that sells olds trumpet parts kits. I paid under $20 USD for felts, corks, springs and waterkey corks for my 54 Old Studio. Works fine.
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B6Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link to there store. https://www.ebay.com/str/1469music

I’ve used their kits on the above mentioned 54 Studio as well as my 50 Super and 58 Studio. It’s a nice deal. I replace the valve stem corks felts and springs myself. No different than what you would do for a cleaning. Good luck.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your trumpet should not come back to you with clanking valves, period.

You are right, take it back and get them to silence the valves.

And no, it is not the valve guides on an Olds that are the problem.

I just finished an Ambassador for a customer, and despite the loose, worn valves, with new springs, felts, and heavy valve oil, it's fine.

-Lionel
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The felts/corks in my 1947 Super Recording are a little thinner overall than the felts/corks in my 1962 Recording. However, they both stop against the inside of the top valve cap when the valve is in the fully up position.

When you drop a valve into the valve casing on either horn the finger button for that valve is a little higher than the finger buttons on the other valves which are already screwed down. As you screw the top valve cap down the finger button lowers to the same height as the others. So, that's one way to know if the felt/cork is stopping against the underside of the top valve cap when the valve is in the fully up position.

This is not rocket science. If the valves are now clanking and they weren't clanking before something obviously changed. Any decent tech should be able to quickly figure this out and correct it. The fix could be as simple as just putting in a second felt. You could try that fix yourself by robbing a felt from one valve and adding it to a clanking valve. If it stops clanking you've got it figured out.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the help everyone. I took it there because one of the corks was broken apart, and another was too thin and clanking.

What the guy did was put thin corks in, for the sake of port alignment. But I'd rather have quiet, misaligned valves than be a one man band.

And like I said earlier, if I want precision alignment, it will go to Flip.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welp I was right. I had first gone to pick up the horn and noticed the clattering. I left the horn at the shop so that I could talk to the repair tech come Monday. I called him and he just about convinced me that the guides were worn and the pads were correct, due to the alignment. I agree to pick up the horn the following Saturday.

I go there with my daughters and this time its the owner who's there, and another young assistant. I'm resigned to my fate of having worn guides. We get to talking about other stuff, I'm trying their horns and meanwhile the owner is tinkering with the valves. After some tinkering to which I give little attention, he hands me the horn and the valves aren't clattering anymore. He says I was right, the pads weren't striking the top. I said what about the crucial alignment? He said its bang on. He had added small additional white pads to the top of the felts.

So there.
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