Low or High F trumpets for Mahler?

[lmao_a_horn_player]

I was always under the impression that players of the late romantic era would use high f trumpets because the parts were written so that you transpose up a 5th on a Bb, but upon researching it, I am finding that they play on trumpets pitched a 4th down from a Bb. I was wondering if this is the case if they would have to read the music up an octave (or if it was written up there originally) or if the music we read when playing is adapted to our modern Bb and C trumpets? If anyone could shed some light or correct me where I went wrong on this that would be great!

[LSOfanboy]

[Jerry]

I was under the impression that Vacchiano used a large D-trumpet a lot. Didn't Susan Slaughter use an Eb a lot, too?

[LSOfanboy]

[trumpetmandan]

The trumpet in F parts from the late romantic era are generally for low F trumpet, as LSOfanboy posted. The players of that time played these parts in the same register in which we play today, meaning that they had their work cut out for them!

[LarsHusum]

I have heard that Howard Snell used to play everything on an Eb trumpet with the LSO.
There is a Mahler 2 video recording with Bernstein, where he demonstrates this.
It sounds great by the way.
_________________
http://www.hornkapelle.dk

[Irving]

Yes Bb is the main orchestral instrument in GB. Which is why I was surprised to see an old B&W video of Philip Jones playing Pictures at an Exhibition on C trumpet, with Giulini I believe. It is on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R3OcYXy0XU

[Gabrieli]

Were any German or Austrian orchestras still using f trumpets by the time Mahler's symphonies were performed or even when he wrote them? Probably not. The Vienna Philharmonic used piston c trumpets at the beginning of the 20th century and elswhere b flat instruments had long been established.
Interestingly, for one high pp passage in the last movement of his 7th symphony, Mahler wrote "auf kleinem Piston", which normally one would translate as "on a small cornet". I wonder what he meant; presumably something smaller than c or b flat trumpet.
Perhaps someone knows if they used high e flat cornets in Austrian or Bohemian bands at this time?

[Moderators]

Posts removed. Personal attacks are against the UA. Think twice, post once, and walk away if it is not contributing to the discussion.

[JetJaguar]

I wish I had a magical "nice wand" like that. Ding!
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com

[Irving]

[JetJaguar]

Mlada, by Rimsky-Korsakov, calls for two trumpets and a low F trumpet. In The Procession of the Nobles is a great opening fanfare for 3 trumpets. I've transcribed it inexpertly from the original score with Musescore if anyone wants the parts. I haven't added dynamics or style indications. I transposed it so all 3 parts are written for Bb trumpet.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece

I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com

[Didymus]

[JetJaguar]

[Tpt_Guy]

[JetJaguar]

[Didymus]

I'm no expert, but did lurk here for a while before I finally registered and starting speaking up.

I found two parallel threads about the alto F in Russian orchestrations:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1176893

http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/contr-a-alto-trumpet-in-f.38943/

The OP of both threads received a robust response on the TM site.

I tried some google-fu to look for a source similar to what I read years ago. The other day when I asked Jim Becker about converting a G sop bugle to an instrument which I could play in F I brought up what I had learned years ago about there being two different kinds of low F trumpets. I'll keep looking to find where I picked up on that idea.
_________________
Enjoy the journey.

[Ferg825]

[Gabrieli]

To get back to the original poster's question, I do not think it has been answered adequately or correctly.
To make sure we are talking about the same thing: late romantic is for me the period ca. 1870-1910.

The original poster asked about trumpets in Mahler’s symphonies.
LSOfanboy replied "They played low F trumpets. "
and Trumpetmandan wrote "The trumpet in F parts from the late romantic era are generally for low F trumpet"
These statements are IMHO inncorrect
Composers such as Mahler notated their parts as if they were being performed on 6 foot f trumpets, which may still sometimes have been the case when he was studying composition ca. 1870 but by the time his symphonies were written and performed - despite the notation, sometimes in f sometimes in bflat- they would always have been performed on b flat trumpets or in the case
of the Vienna Philharmonic c trumpets. I think from around 1860-70 players had started changing to b flat in German speaking countries. I guess it is just possible that the first performance of his first symphony in Budapest may have been played on f trumpets.
The only country still using long f trumpets in Mahler’s time was Britain, I believe. They used f trumpets there into the 20th century.

So the short historically correct answer is:
the composer Mahler wrote often out of habit, as if the trumpeters were still using the long f trumpet, but in reality they weren’t, they were using the b flat.
Similarly modern horn parts are still notated in f but the players use the b flat side of their double horn most of the time. [/b]

[Trompette111]

My teacher said that before that time all players use long low F trumpet but as Mahler was living there was slow switch to Bb and maybe C. It was sensible for him to write for F trumpet